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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 17 2010, 10:58 PM   #136
Smiley
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Several posts have already been made in this very thread that can explain events in Star Trek (2009) that do not involve any radical assumptions like more alternate realities or additional Spocks. Most importantly, the scenes in the movie make much more dramatic sense if it is "our" Spock that travels to Pine's universe. Fans are intelligent enough to rationalize, ignore, or "squint" when things don't mesh perfectly.

Hypothetically, let's say that the next Abrams Trek movie is a masterpiece on every level, has complete internal consistency, and has a couple of minor contradictions to TOS dialogue. Would people try just as hard to disassociate that movie from TOS? What would be the point, since the movie was fun, intellectually stimulating, and everything that a great story should be?

Really, this discussion is turning into a personal continuity vs. canon debate without those exact terms being thrown about. The latter is relatively easy to define, but it is seldom accepted in its entirety by fans because of ludicrous inconsistencies or episodes/movies that individual people just don't like. The best part is that nobody can be wrong in their choice of personal continuity.
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Old May 17 2010, 10:59 PM   #137
Dukhat
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Abrams can claim it's original Spock all he wants, and so can Nimoy, till the cows come home or the Earth's sun goes nova. But old nuSpock doesn't act like original Spock did and would. Ergo: it ain't original Spock. nuSpock is from somewhere else.
Picard from the movies acted nothing like Picard from the TV show. Is he from an alternate universe too?
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Old May 17 2010, 11:02 PM   #138
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Re: Where did Spock go?

^ Lol, I love how angry you are. Its hilarious how butthurt and out of sorts the detractors get over this movie. The funniest part is how they think they represent the majority of TOS fans.
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Old May 17 2010, 11:03 PM   #139
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Abrams can claim it's original Spock all he wants, and so can Nimoy, till the cows come home or the Earth's sun goes nova. But old nuSpock doesn't act like original Spock did and would. Ergo: it ain't original Spock. nuSpock is from somewhere else.
Picard from the movies acted nothing like Picard from the TV show. Is he from an alternate universe too?
Could be. How the hell would I know? I dumped TNG sometime during fifth season. And I don't really care enough about TNG to want to know more about it.

Char Aznable wrote: View Post
^ Lol, I love how angry you are. Its hilarious how butthurt and out of sorts the detractors get over this movie. The funniest part is how they think they represent the majority of TOS fans.
I never claimed that, ever. I speak only for myself. You can assume all you like.
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Old May 17 2010, 11:11 PM   #140
Dukhat
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Could be. How the hell would I know? I dumped TNG sometime during fifth season. And I don't really care enough about TNG to want to know more about it.
Well then maybe you should, because then you might just see how flimsy your argument is.

I never claimed that, ever. I speak only for myself. You can assume all you like.
To Warped9's credit, I don't think he does try to speak for all Trek fans, not like some other people who we all already know do this. But just out of curiousity: Does it bother you that the majority of Star Trek fans don't agree with your way of thinking, or do you not care? And if you don't care, then why do you let things bother you so much that you have to post such vitriol when it comes to anything post-TOS, especially this new movie? We get that you don't like it because it's a slap in the face to your "personal" view of Trek. Fine. But why all the hate?
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Last edited by Boo-khat; May 17 2010 at 11:24 PM.
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Old May 17 2010, 11:27 PM   #141
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Where did Spock go?

CRA, I do hope you were having a laugh when you posted those TOS "fixes" and then tried to gloss over the fact that the mistakes were just as bad in every possible, measurable way as the ones in STXI.
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Old May 17 2010, 11:59 PM   #142
Warped9
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
To Warped9's credit, I don't think he does try to speak for all Trek fans, not like some other people who we all already know do this. But just out of curiousity: Does it bother you that the majority of Star Trek fans don't agree with your way of thinking, or do you not care? And if you don't care, then why do you let things bother you so much that you have to post such vitriol when it comes to anything post-TOS, especially this new movie? We get that you don't like it because it's a slap in the face to your "personal" view of Trek. Fine. But why all the hate?
Call it an eccentricity.

There are things I like post TOS. There are some moments in the '80s films I like. There's some TNG and DS9 I like. But as a whole I've been very disappointed.
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Old May 18 2010, 12:34 AM   #143
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Warped9 wrote: View Post

There are things I like post TOS. There are some oments in the '80s films I like. There's some TNG and DS9 I like. But as a whole I've been very disappointed.
So is Hitler (thread is long enough for a Godwin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9i9N-Ez5Y8&feature=related
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Old May 18 2010, 12:52 AM   #144
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Re: Where did Spock go?

maryh wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post

There are things I like post TOS. There are some moments in the '80s films I like. There's some TNG and DS9 I like. But as a whole I've been very disappointed.
So is Hitler (thread is long enough for a Godwin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9i9N-Ez5Y8&feature=related


That is just too fucking funny!
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Old May 18 2010, 01:12 AM   #145
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Shazam! wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Remember, what JJ Abrams says in interviews and what the writers intended isn't canon. What's on screen is.
Again, says who?
The guys who own the franchise, you know like it's been done for the last almost 50 f@$king years.

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post
It's not his universe at that point, so it's not up to him.
This seems to be a moot point to me.

Spock has acted to preserve worlds with which he had far less connection than an alternate universe Vulcan.

And in any case it would still be genocide.
And how would you suggest Spock change this and yes I want something more than go back in time because Spock Prime doesn't have anything in the 23rd century to take out the Narada with short of a fleet and I think getting that many ships to do the time warp around the sun thing and arrive at the same time period would be really hard and may be imposssible seeing as how precise the calculations would have to be.

Duncan MacLeod wrote: View Post
As for a way prevent it, the simplest would be to use the warp speed breakaway factor to take Enterprise back to the point in time when Nero emerges in the past and blow him to hell with a spread of 24th century quantum torpedoes. Which I'm reasonably sure Spock should be able to fabricate.
Well I can see some problems with that

1) Starfleet would have to help to pull this off and they don't have the same relationship with Spock Prime that alt. Picard had with alt. Guinan did in Yesterday's Enterprise so I doubt they would just take his word for it. They may also not like the fact that Spock Prime would be (from their point of view) screwing with the lives of billions even trillions just because he doesn't like how their existence turned out. Also again from the point of view of the people this would be just like whenever an entire civilization was wiped out by some scary big bad in TOS, you'll notice that they never went back to save the Constellation, Intrepid, Excalibur, or Defiant, they never used time travel to save the worlds destroyed by the Doomsday Machine or Nomad.

2) If they do it the Narad showed up on the Federation/Klingon border how the hell do you think the Klingons are going to respond when they see an advanced Federation ship appear out of nowhere and use highly advanced and destructive weapons to destroy another highly advanced ship? To answer that question I suggest you watch Star Trek III.


maryh wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post

There are things I like post TOS. There are some oments in the '80s films I like. There's some TNG and DS9 I like. But as a whole I've been very disappointed.
So is Hitler (thread is long enough for a Godwin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9i9N-Ez5Y8&feature=related
Nice to see that at least one Downfall parody survived Youtube's forced purge.
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Old May 18 2010, 01:18 AM   #146
Warped9
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Re: Where did Spock go?

My beef ISN'T that the film contradicts established TOS continuity. Hell, it's a freaking reboot--it isn't beholden to established continuity.

My major beef is I think it's a bad and stupid movie. My second beef is that it's argued to be the original continuity altered (which it plainly isn't) and the insistence that the older nuSpock is from the original timeline/universe whatever. He plainly isn't.
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Old May 18 2010, 01:37 AM   #147
xortex
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Where did Spock go? To the bank, of course. It was highly logical.
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Old May 18 2010, 01:49 AM   #148
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Spock said, "You want me to what? Go where? Hmm... For the first time in my life I'm saying to hell with this and going out for a beer. You may later inform me how this highly illogical and extremely irrational exercise turns out... Jim Kirk must be rolling in his grave."
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Old May 18 2010, 02:00 AM   #149
T'Bonz
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Hurrah! Why people argue over a show and movie is beyond me. I love TOS and liked the movie, but even had I not liked the new movie, I see no point in getting pissed about it, or any of the details. I either accept what is offered, or it goes to my personal "canon reject" bin. Like Threshold, or Seven of Nine.
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Old May 18 2010, 02:22 AM   #150
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Re: Where did Spock go?

Hmmm... I'll break this down into different parts.

I. Support that it's the TOS universe altered:

Nero didn't know when he was at the beginning of the movie and it's possible Spock didn't know when he was either, until he mind-melded with nKirk. In the theater I thought it was odd that Spock forgot when Kirk became Captain but if he doesn't know when he is, then it's understandable. nKirk was chronologically 25 and I can say that physically there isn't much of a difference between 25 and 30. Unless you don't take care of yourself, and you're a hard drinker or smoker, which adds 10 years to your appearance automatically, but nKirk clearly stayed in shape.

nChekov isn't the same as person as the original Chekov. Different sperm, different egg. His parents decided to have a child four years sooner for whatever reason.

Nero's ship destroying the Kelvin probably halted R&D on all prospective Starfleet ships. Starfleet would've wanted a fleet of ships that could withstand an attack from that type of ship. Clearly Starfleet did extensive research on the incident, nPike at the very least focused his doctoral studies on the Kelvin's destruction.

One or both of Chekov's parents could have even been in Starfleet and this halting affected their lives to the point where Pavel was born sooner.

Kirk starting the Academy at 22, was starting older than the traditional age which I assume is 18. If Uhura and Sulu were 19 in 2255, that would put their births at 2236, making them early-30s in TOS, which closely if not exactly matches Nichelle Nichols' and George Takei's ages at the time TOS was produced.

II. Support/possibilities that it's not:

nPike clearly looks older than Pike in "The Cage".

I'm reserving judgment that on whether or not Nero traveled into the past of an alternate universe instead of the past of the same universe until they unveil Khan, if they do. Either they'll ignore when Khan was from and not mention it, or they'll move up the time he was from. If it's the former, then it could still be the same universe but altered from 2233 on. If it's the latter, then it's an alternate universe all around.

III. Miscellaneous:

Dax said McCoy was a student at Ole Miss. He could still have been a student at Ole Miss when he became a doctor. Then, in the new movie at least, went to the Academy afterward.

There are a few more things, relating to TOS and not ST XI, but I'll save them for the next post. This one is long enough.
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