Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity?

Gaith · May 6 2010, 05:30 AM

I think most would agree that, in a contextual vacuum in which the isolated films themselves are the only measure of artistic worth, First Contact is the best TNG film. It's got the best pacing, the best acting and writing, the most drama, the coolest set pieces and is generally the most fun. But I'm proposing putting all discussion of artistic quality aside for a moment in order to determine which movie fits best with TNG the series, as well as the overall continuity.

To my mind, since none of the movies really tie into/stem from previously created content (apart from Picard and the Borg, but that's an iffy matter as discussed below), the question is a matter of picking the least obtrusive one. Here, then, are the general arguments against each, largely culled from RedLetterMedia's "psychotic old guy" reviews, and of course feel free to add others in the comments!

Generations - weird uniform scheme, some Enterprise D sets, lighting and props inconsistent with those of the series. Scotty witnesses Kirk's supposed demise, contradicting his asking about him in "Relics". Picard manhandles the priceless archaeological artifact, and transparent aluminum shatters like glass. And what's the point of building a nifty new stellar cartography lab for if you've got holodecks?

First Contact - well, the whole story, really: if the Borg can time-travel, why do they only do so where Starfleet gets a fighting chance? "Rambo" Picard, Worf is the only recognizable DS9 crewman on the Defiant, inconsistent mentions of Ent-E decks, holographic period clothes. Picard's dubious (at best) "no currency" assertion. And while the Borg Queen of course became a part of the larger continuity through VOY, she still makes a sudden, borderline-retconning first appearance here. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority.

Insurrection - Of all the women in the galaxy, Picard falls for this chick? And forgets/doesn't mention that he has indeed lived a quiet lifetime in a moment? Worf's weird presence, sorta covered with a throwaway line. Troi has kissed Riker with a beard before, several times. Data the flotation device. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority.

Nemesis - sudden introductions of B-4 (no mention of Lore), Remus and Remans. Unexplained return of Wesley to Starfleet. Worf apparently quitting his diplomatic post so soon seems out of character. Weird appearance of a wheeled off-road vehicle, more "Rambo Picard." Picard had hair in the Academy. Everyone forgets about the transporters in the shuttles and Captain's Yacht. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority. Admiral Janeway? What about the massive temporal PD infringements in "Endgame"?

Seems to me that, all told, Generations is the mildest continuity offender, with only a few, minor "off" details (Scotty in "Relics" and the priceless artifact being the most glaring ones outside of largely cosmetic series-to-movie stylistic modifications). Thoughts?

Utopianvista · May 10 2010, 02:30 AM

Gaith wrote:

Picard's dubious (at best) "no currency" assertion.

uhhh what? How is that dubious?

Did you miss Star Trek: IV, TNG the Neutral Zone and countless DS9 examples. That line is probably the most canon thing in that awful film!

Generations fits in the most. The characters actually acted like themselves and not out of character, aside from Data obviously.

vess · May 10 2010, 04:50 PM

Gaith wrote:

Picard manhandles the priceless archaeological artifact, and transparent aluminum shatters like glass.

Huh?

BriGuy · May 10 2010, 05:12 PM

vess wrote:

Gaith wrote:

Picard manhandles the priceless archaeological artifact, and transparent aluminum shatters like glass.

Huh?

At the end of the movie, when Picard and Riker are searching through his wrecked ready room, Picard picks up and casually discards an artifact. It is the same one he nearly fainted over in the series, when his archeology professor/friend gave to him. It opened up and had a bunch of little figurines inside it.

He was looking for his family photo album, which was last seen in his quarters, not in this room. And that artifact was unlikely to have been in this room.

And during the crash of the saucer, they show windows shattering in crew quarters. One would think they are not glass, but some stronger material - like the mentioned transparent aluminum - and would be stronger than that.

There's a hilarious video review that mentions both of these.

May 10 2010, 06:05 PM

Generations fits because it establishes some of what Kirk was doing in between TMP and TWOK. Presumably he commanded the Enterprise again after TMP, was muscled into retirement, tried a shot at living civilian life, then went back to Starfleet as an Admiral stationed on Earth near the Enterprise which had become a training vessel, making Kirk depressed that he's back in Starfleet but still not back to where he really wants to be. Generations also shows us the Enterprise-B. And, that's just the TOS end. In TNG it serves as an "eighth season", the crew is still doing what it does... until the ship gets destroyed. Nothing is mentioned about Worf or Troi's relationship but we can safely assume it didn't work out. The only differences of note are the lighting of the Enterprise and the crew switching from TNG to DS9 uniforms. While both series were on at the same time, it looked like the DS9 uniforms were intended as a variant instead of a replacement.

First Contact fits the next best. The story fits but Picard becomes less Picard-like and Data can suddenly turn off his emotion chip at will. Also, Zephram Cochrane is very different from the character we saw in "Metamorphosis" (TOS). I like that this version of Zephram Cochrane was based off Gene Roddenberry.

Insurrection fits in the least. There's a war going on. Why isn't the Enterprise at the front lines? Why is the mood so cheerful? It feels out of place. And is the Picard who protests Dougherty the same Picard from "Journey's End"?

Nemesis fits in better than Insurrection, except Shinzon appears to be in his 20s. The Federation and the Romulans weren't interacting with each other, as adversaries or otherwise 20 years earlier. So how and where did the Romulans get the DNA from Picard to create Shinzon? And B-4 comes from out of nowhere. Literally. Still, it fits better than Insurrection. Having the Romulans go back to being a concern for the Federation makes sense since that was what was predicted in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges". Troi and Riker getting married is also something that was a long time coming.

So, IMO it goes: GEN, FC, NEM, INS

Dukhat · May 10 2010, 06:55 PM

Lord Garth wrote:

Generations fits because it establishes some of what Kirk was doing in between TMP and TWOK. Presumably he commanded the Enterprise again after TMP, was muscled into retirement, tried a shot at living civilian life, then went back to Starfleet as an Admiral stationed on Earth near the Enterprise which had become a training vessel, making Kirk depressed that he's back in Starfleet but still not back to where he really wants to be.

I was under the impression that the Nexus-induced retirement scene was a second retirement for Kirk immediately after the events of The Undiscovered Country, not during his first retirement before TWOK.

May 10 2010, 07:14 PM

He refers to it as "11 years ago" when he first met Antonia and "nine years ago" when he told her he was going back to Starfleet.

GEN takes place in 2371, minus 78 years is 2293. Nine to 11 years before that is 2282-2284, pre-TWOK.

Gaith · May 12 2010, 04:06 AM

Well, seems to me that Lord Garth's answer is unlikely to be bettered... thanks!

May 14 2010, 01:07 PM

A Romulan spy may have got Picard's DNA.

JRS · May 14 2010, 01:51 PM

Gaith wrote:

Nemesis - sudden introductions of B-4 (no mention of Lore), Remus and Remans. Unexplained return of Wesley to Starfleet. Worf apparently quitting his diplomatic post so soon seems out of character. Weird appearance of a wheeled off-road vehicle, more "Rambo Picard." Picard had hair in the Academy. Everyone forgets about the transporters in the shuttles and Captain's Yacht. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority. Admiral Janeway? What about the massive temporal PD infringements in "Endgame"?

Not to mention the fact that Troi..who in the past has been telepathicly raped, possesed by aliens twice, been lost in her mothers mind, lost her telephatic skills, completed the bridge officer exam, crashed the E-D, and married Riker...cries on sickbay bed and wants to get reliefed of duty just because some bald guy appeared in her mind while she was having sex

Not excatly in character, me thinks..

And yes, Generations is the least offender

barnaclelapse · May 14 2010, 02:45 PM

Lord Garth wrote:

Generations fits because it establishes some of what Kirk was doing in between TMP and TWOK. Presumably he commanded the Enterprise again after TMP, was muscled into retirement, tried a shot at living civilian life, then went back to Starfleet as an Admiral stationed on Earth near the Enterprise which had become a training vessel, making Kirk depressed that he's back in Starfleet but still not back to where he really wants to be. Generations also shows us the Enterprise-B. And, that's just the TOS end. In TNG it serves as an "eighth season", the crew is still doing what it does... until the ship gets destroyed. Nothing is mentioned about Worf or Troi's relationship but we can safely assume it didn't work out. The only differences of note are the lighting of the Enterprise and the crew switching from TNG to DS9 uniforms. While both series were on at the same time, it looked like the DS9 uniforms were intended as a variant instead of a replacement.

First Contact fits the next best. The story fits but Picard becomes less Picard-like and Data can suddenly turn off his emotion chip at will. Also, Zephram Cochrane is very different from the character we saw in "Metamorphosis" (TOS). I like that this version of Zephram Cochrane was based off Gene Roddenberry.

Insurrection fits in the least. There's a war going on. Why isn't the Enterprise at the front lines? Why is the mood so cheerful? It feels out of place. And is the Picard who protests Dougherty the same Picard from "Journey's End"?

Nemesis fits in better than Insurrection, except Shinzon appears to be in his 20s. The Federation and the Romulans weren't interacting with each other, as adversaries or otherwise 20 years earlier. So how and where did the Romulans get the DNA from Picard to create Shinzon? And B-4 comes from out of nowhere. Literally. Still, it fits better than Insurrection. Having the Romulans go back to being a concern for the Federation makes sense since that was what was predicted in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges". Troi and Riker getting married is also something that was a long time coming.

So, IMO it goes: GEN, FC, NEM, INS

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. I would have gone with FC and then GEN, NEM and INS, but I'd say you're absolutely right on the money.

Gaith · May 15 2010, 09:48 PM

Ooh, good point, JRS!

I don't have a problem with the changes in the emotion chip myself - I accept that it can be modified to turn on and off, and even removed.

As for FC, the whole time travel angle really puts a dent in the story's believability, imo. Doesn't mean the movie isn't fun, it just doesn't really square with the ruthless Borg reputation.

May 6 2010, 05:30 AM	#1
Gaith Rear Admiral Location: Starfleet Command, The City that Knows How	Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity? I think most would agree that, in a contextual vacuum in which the isolated films themselves are the only measure of artistic worth, First Contact is the best TNG film. It's got the best pacing, the best acting and writing, the most drama, the coolest set pieces and is generally the most fun. But I'm proposing putting all discussion of artistic quality aside for a moment in order to determine which movie fits best with TNG the series, as well as the overall continuity. To my mind, since none of the movies really tie into/stem from previously created content (apart from Picard and the Borg, but that's an iffy matter as discussed below), the question is a matter of picking the least obtrusive one. Here, then, are the general arguments against each, largely culled from RedLetterMedia's "psychotic old guy" reviews, and of course feel free to add others in the comments! Generations - weird uniform scheme, some Enterprise D sets, lighting and props inconsistent with those of the series. Scotty witnesses Kirk's supposed demise, contradicting his asking about him in "Relics". Picard manhandles the priceless archaeological artifact, and transparent aluminum shatters like glass. And what's the point of building a nifty new stellar cartography lab for if you've got holodecks? First Contact - well, the whole story, really: if the Borg can time-travel, why do they only do so where Starfleet gets a fighting chance? "Rambo" Picard, Worf is the only recognizable DS9 crewman on the Defiant, inconsistent mentions of Ent-E decks, holographic period clothes. Picard's dubious (at best) "no currency" assertion. And while the Borg Queen of course became a part of the larger continuity through VOY, she still makes a sudden, borderline-retconning first appearance here. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority. Insurrection - Of all the women in the galaxy, Picard falls for this chick? And forgets/doesn't mention that he has indeed lived a quiet lifetime in a moment? Worf's weird presence, sorta covered with a throwaway line. Troi has kissed Riker with a beard before, several times. Data the flotation device. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority. Nemesis - sudden introductions of B-4 (no mention of Lore), Remus and Remans. Unexplained return of Wesley to Starfleet. Worf apparently quitting his diplomatic post so soon seems out of character. Weird appearance of a wheeled off-road vehicle, more "Rambo Picard." Picard had hair in the Academy. Everyone forgets about the transporters in the shuttles and Captain's Yacht. No changes in Senior Staff or rank despite accumulating experience and seniority. Admiral Janeway? What about the massive temporal PD infringements in "Endgame"? Seems to me that, all told, Generations is the mildest continuity offender, with only a few, minor "off" details (Scotty in "Relics" and the priceless artifact being the most glaring ones outside of largely cosmetic series-to-movie stylistic modifications). Thoughts?

May 10 2010, 06:05 PM	#5
Lord Garth Guest	Re: Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity? Generations fits because it establishes some of what Kirk was doing in between TMP and TWOK. Presumably he commanded the Enterprise again after TMP, was muscled into retirement, tried a shot at living civilian life, then went back to Starfleet as an Admiral stationed on Earth near the Enterprise which had become a training vessel, making Kirk depressed that he's back in Starfleet but still not back to where he really wants to be. Generations also shows us the Enterprise-B. And, that's just the TOS end. In TNG it serves as an "eighth season", the crew is still doing what it does... until the ship gets destroyed. Nothing is mentioned about Worf or Troi's relationship but we can safely assume it didn't work out. The only differences of note are the lighting of the Enterprise and the crew switching from TNG to DS9 uniforms. While both series were on at the same time, it looked like the DS9 uniforms were intended as a variant instead of a replacement. First Contact fits the next best. The story fits but Picard becomes less Picard-like and Data can suddenly turn off his emotion chip at will. Also, Zephram Cochrane is very different from the character we saw in "Metamorphosis" (TOS). I like that this version of Zephram Cochrane was based off Gene Roddenberry. Insurrection fits in the least. There's a war going on. Why isn't the Enterprise at the front lines? Why is the mood so cheerful? It feels out of place. And is the Picard who protests Dougherty the same Picard from "Journey's End"? Nemesis fits in better than Insurrection, except Shinzon appears to be in his 20s. The Federation and the Romulans weren't interacting with each other, as adversaries or otherwise 20 years earlier. So how and where did the Romulans get the DNA from Picard to create Shinzon? And B-4 comes from out of nowhere. Literally. Still, it fits better than Insurrection. Having the Romulans go back to being a concern for the Federation makes sense since that was what was predicted in DS9's "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges". Troi and Riker getting married is also something that was a long time coming. So, IMO it goes: GEN, FC, NEM, INS

May 10 2010, 07:14 PM	#7
Lord Garth Guest	Re: Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity? He refers to it as "11 years ago" when he first met Antonia and "nine years ago" when he told her he was going back to Starfleet. GEN takes place in 2371, minus 78 years is 2293. Nine to 11 years before that is 2282-2284, pre-TWOK.

May 12 2010, 04:06 AM	#8
Gaith Rear Admiral Location: Starfleet Command, The City that Knows How	Re: Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity? Well, seems to me that Lord Garth's answer is unlikely to be bettered... thanks!

May 14 2010, 01:07 PM	#9
Mr Cool Dude Guest	Re: Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity? A Romulan spy may have got Picard's DNA.

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May 15 2010, 09:48 PM	#12
Gaith Rear Admiral Location: Starfleet Command, The City that Knows How	Re: Which TNG movie fits best in the larger continuity? Ooh, good point, JRS! I don't have a problem with the changes in the emotion chip myself - I accept that it can be modified to turn on and off, and even removed. As for FC, the whole time travel angle really puts a dent in the story's believability, imo. Doesn't mean the movie isn't fun, it just doesn't really square with the ruthless Borg reputation.