RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 143,274
Posts: 5,603,732
Members: 25,412
Currently online: 509
Newest member: bumpey65

TrekToday headlines

Quinto To Guest Star On Crime Show
By: T'Bonz on Mar 5

Star Trek/Doctor Who Parody Comic
By: T'Bonz on Mar 4

Nimoy Commemorative Magazine
By: T'Bonz on Mar 4

Saturday Night Live Trek Skit
By: T'Bonz on Mar 3

Two IDW Publishing Trek Comics Previews
By: T'Bonz on Mar 3

Shatner: Celebrate Life
By: T'Bonz on Mar 3

March-April 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Mar 2

Shatner Shares Nimoy Memories
By: T'Bonz on Mar 2

Retro Review: When It Rains…
By: Michelle on Feb 27

Nimoy Dead At Eighty-Three
By: T'Bonz on Feb 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old May 22 2010, 02:18 PM   #121
CommanderRaytas
Rear Admiral
 
CommanderRaytas's Avatar
 
Location: Jimmy Whispers and his fancy walkman
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Of course, if it pleases some folks, it's entirely possible that Nero and his crew simply represents a type of Romulan we haven't seen before. After all, we've seen different types of Vulcans (different skin tones), Andorians (different skin tones and different antenna placements), and even joined Trills (Odan) over the years.

Not all aliens from the same world look alike, IMO...
Sounds plausible.

But you know, the funny thing is, before I joined this forum I never wasted any time worrying about such details. I just accepted the differences as...well, things that don't matter.
__________________
It was a nice day ... AND THEN EVIL CAME!The Collected Works of Stephen King, condensed version
Jimmy Whispers is building a gravity belt, but old viking dudes hide tube socks in the cellar!
CommanderRaytas is offline  
Old May 22 2010, 05:58 PM   #122
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Angmar
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Space Therapist wrote: View Post
In other words the action and dialog on the screen point to it being a typical linear time travel story
You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Nothing about this film indicates so-called "linear" time travel.

I-Am-Zim wrote:
He could have used any of several different methods to travel back to the instant before Vulcan was destroyed and stopped Nero somehow.
Not while marooned on Delta Vega. If you intend to speculate that he could have grabbed a starship and traveled back in time at a later point, why would that necessarily be covered within the events and timeframe of this film? If he decided on more time travel as a course of action, why would there be any urgency? In the meantime, contributing to the rescue of the Abramsverse Federation would seem the logical thing to do.
__________________
Just walk away, and there will be an end to the horror.

Last edited by Set Harth; May 22 2010 at 06:29 PM.
Set Harth is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 05:51 AM   #123
Epsilon-9
Lieutenant Commander
 
Epsilon-9's Avatar
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
No it wasn't Worf just said the Klingons didn't like to talk about it.
Oh, I see. I’d have to re-watch the show I’ve only seen it 4 times since it came out all those years back.
__________________
Ex-projectionist UCI Warner Bros village cinemas.
Epsilon-9 is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 06:15 AM   #124
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I don't see the point of complaining about the Romulan's forehead ridges. For one thing, Nero and his crew have them--the make-up is just more subtle than it was on TNG and DS9. Second, we've seen Romulans without forehead ridges in the 23rd century (both Star Trek as well as TFF and TUC). Third, we've seen Romulans with forehead ridges in the 22nd century on Enterprise. Fourth, we saw Spock blending into a crowd of Romulans in "Unification," despite having no forehead ridges. It stands to reason, then, that there is some variation of the ridges among Romulans.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 09:50 AM   #125
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Harvey wrote: View Post
I don't see the point of complaining about the Romulan's forehead ridges. For one thing, Nero and his crew have them--the make-up is just more subtle than it was on TNG and DS9. Second, we've seen Romulans without forehead ridges in the 23rd century (both Star Trek as well as TFF and TUC). Third, we've seen Romulans with forehead ridges in the 22nd century on Enterprise. Fourth, we saw Spock blending into a crowd of Romulans in "Unification," despite having no forehead ridges. It stands to reason, then, that there is some variation of the ridges among Romulans.
^This, when it comes to the ridges, however, there are many other problems.

The artificial Black Holes was mentioned.

The design aesthetic of the Romulan ships was mentioned, and I'd like to add; it's not just the 24th century ships, it's the 23rd TOS and even 22nd century ships as well: resembling birds of prey, with a bird's of prey's wings painted on the under side.

Now for the ones not yet mentioned:

Spock being surprised in 2256 that Kirk is not the commander of the Enterprise, despite the fact that in the prime universe Kirk would still be a Lieutenant or Lieutenant Commander, probably serving on the Faragut; and Spock was serving under Captain Pike on the Enterprise. The Spock from the universe we've been following for the past 40 years, may be surprised Kirk isn't a Lieutenant on a ship, but not that he's not the Captain of the Enterprise.

The Kelvin is too big for Prime Universe ships of the same era, its design aesthetics are also 50 years in the Prime Universe's future. (2233 - 2280s). If this universe is the universe that Old Spock came from up until the moment of the Narada's arrival; that means that that universe would also have that Kelvin, which can't be the Prime Universe. Result; Old Spock origin is not the Prime Universe.

In the same way, you can see many more differences in this universe, before the Narada even arrives; no shock at what a Romulan looks like from the Kelvin crew, along with a mere cadet knowing all of the Romulans' dialects, which is something the Prime Universe 24th century seems to have, suggestion long-time contact with Romulans, while in the Prime Universe the Romulans were not seen or heard from until 2266 by Kirk.

Nero being pissed off that "the Federation didn't help the Romulans" and him going on the assumption that Federation has an obligation to do so, produces a Romulan Star Empire; or rather a Romulan Nation that is a third world nation that's been the Federation's colony, a nation that could do nothing about their destruction themselves, and the ones that caused it have duties to those they weakened; not an equal, and enemy Star Empire whose alliance was needed to defeat the Dominion. Once more showing the Narada and Old Spock's origin to be that of a very different universe than the Prime one. (Which incidentally ties in with the differences noted above. It seems both the two universes / time lines depicted in the movie, are ones where the Humans / pre-curser Federation / Alliance didn't simply fight the Romulans back and then set up a peace treaty, but one where they conquered the Romulans entirely, and only slowly over time allowed them their independence again, while firmly keeping them down to stave off a repeat of the Romulan War.)
3D Master is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 10:11 AM   #126
Devon
Fleet Captain
 
Devon's Avatar
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post
^This, when it comes to the ridges, however, there are many other problems.

The artificial Black Holes was mentioned.

The design aesthetic of the Romulan ships was mentioned, and I'd like to add; it's not just the 24th century ships, it's the 23rd TOS and even 22nd century ships as well: resembling birds of prey, with a bird's of prey's wings painted on the under side.
So the mining vessel has to look like a bird of prey? Why? That's like saying all Starfleet vessels have to look the same. They don't.

Spock being surprised in 2256
Assuming he knows the year.

that Kirk is not the commander of the Enterprise...
The Kelvin is too big for Prime Universe ships of the same era,
That isn't a problem, that's more of your opinion. There is nothing to prove that it's "too big" for the era. And before someone brings up "Well the ships after it were smaller in the prime universe" then I'd like to point out that there has never been a written rule that this ships have to get bigger as they go on. This was obviously proven in "The Next Generation" and after, the ships obviously got smaller as time goes on. Basically, the ships are made to be the size they need to be. Same rule applies here, there is no problem.

its design aesthetics are also 50 years in the Prime Universe's future. (2233 - 2280s).
So was it supposed to look less futuristic than the NX-01? That's the only way they could do it.

If this universe is the universe that Old Spock came from up until the moment of the Narada's arrival; that means that that universe would also have that Kelvin, which can't be the Prime Universe.
Speculation.

Result; Old Spock origin is not the Prime Universe.
Of course he is.

In the same way, you can see many more differences in this universe, before the Narada even arrives; no shock at what a Romulan looks like from the Kelvin crew,
They don't know they are Romulan at the time. "Where are you from?" to quote Captain Robau.

along with a mere cadet knowing all of the Romulans' dialects, which is something the Prime Universe 24th century seems to have, suggestion long-time contact with Romulans, while in the Prime Universe the Romulans were not seen or heard from until 2266 by Kirk.
They still have old radio transmissions to go by plus any other references.
Devon is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 10:29 AM   #127
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I'm assuming 3D Master missed the "agape" look on the Kelvin crew when a psychotic, bald, tattooed Vulcan appeared on the screen? Besides Trek (especially TOS) comes across multiple almost-human aliens all the time. Why would an almost-Vulcan be a shock?

About the Kelvin's size: The Voyager can to everything the Enterprise-D can, yet is a fraction of the size. If there were big and small ships in the 24th century with similar capibilities, it's kind of small-minded to insist that there weren't in the 23rd just because we didn't see them until now (remember when they suddenly invented Remans?)

About the Kelvin's look: IMO it's along the lines of what TOS would have "really" looked like. You wouldn't expect George Kirk to read about the attack from a little "Cage"-style printer attached to the sciences' console?
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 10:38 AM   #128
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Devon wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
^This, when it comes to the ridges, however, there are many other problems.

The artificial Black Holes was mentioned.

The design aesthetic of the Romulan ships was mentioned, and I'd like to add; it's not just the 24th century ships, it's the 23rd TOS and even 22nd century ships as well: resembling birds of prey, with a bird's of prey's wings painted on the under side.
So the mining vessel has to look like a bird of prey? Why? That's like saying all Starfleet vessels have to look the same. They don't.
Whatever it can look like, it can't look like a Shadow Battlecrab from Babylon 5.

And sorry, but yes, all Starfleet vessels may not look exactly the same, but they ALL look alike. Even the massive different design-philosophy of the Defiant-class, even that ship still has the same hull composition and coloring, as well as the same insignias.

The Narada-crab, wasn't even anywhere in the neighborhood.

Spock being surprised in 2256
Assuming he knows the year.
If he didn't know the year, why would he be surprised? If he didn't know the year and saw a Cadet Kirk, any rational person would assume a time/year before Kirk took command of the Enterprise, possibly even, before he even graduated the Academy. Yet he was surprised Kirk wasn't the captain of the Enterprise, despite the fact there has been at least one other captain of the Enterprise, and this Kirk is very young and still cadet uniform and insignias.

That isn't a problem, that's more of your opinion. There is nothing to prove that it's "too big" for the era. And before someone brings up "Well the ships after it were smaller in the prime universe" then I'd like to point out that there has never been a written rule that this ships have to get bigger as they go on. This was obviously proven in "The Next Generation" and after, the ships obviously got smaller as time goes on. Basically, the ships are made to be the size they need to be. Same rule applies here, there is no problem.
Uh, no, the Galaxy-class was A LOT bigger than TOS Enterprise. The point is, that the Enterprise in the Prime Universe was the pinnacle that Starfleet had. It also still carries the design and engineering eastetic of the Prime 2280s.

So was it supposed to look less futuristic than the NX-01? That's the only way they could do it.
Bullshit. It was supposed to look like something designed around the 2200s-2230s prime universe; it didn't, it looked like something designed in the 2280s prime universe. And this has got nothing to do with looking less futuristic.

Speculation.
Nope, logical reasoning.

Of course he is.
Nope, he is not.

In the same way, you can see many more differences in this universe, before the Narada even arrives; no shock at what a Romulan looks like from the Kelvin crew,
They don't know they are Romulan at the time. "Where are you from?" to quote Captain Robau.
Then they should still be surprised they're seeing Vulcans in something that doesn't even come close to Vulcan.

along with a mere cadet knowing all of the Romulans' dialects, which is something the Prime Universe 24th century seems to have, suggestion long-time contact with Romulans, while in the Prime Universe the Romulans were not seen or heard from until 2266 by Kirk.
They still have old radio transmissions to go by plus any other references.
Old radio transmissions? You think old radio transmissions manage to survive intact enough to be used to decipher not just one language, but three entire dialects of one?

As for other references; name them.

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I'm assuming 3D Master missed the "agape" look on the Kelvin crew when a psychotic, bald, tattooed Vulcan appeared on the screen? Besides Trek (especially TOS) comes across multiple almost-human aliens all the time. Why would an almost-Vulcan be a shock?
They were already agape when the Narada arrived. There's nothing about it that has anything to do with the Vulcan or Romulan; and it goes shut pretty fast. And they aren't as agape as you like to make it out to be.

About the Kelvin's size: The Voyager can to everything the Enterprise-D can, yet is a fraction of the size. If there were big and small ships in the 24th century with similar capibilities, it's kind of small-minded to insist that there weren't in the 23rd just because we didn't see them until now (remember when they suddenly invented Remans?)
Except of course, that in the Prime Universe the Constitution-class was the largest most powerful most modern vessel Starfleet had. You can have many different designs of ships, but all of them, have to be smaller than the Constitution-class.

About the Kelvin's look: IMO it's along the lines of what TOS would have "really" looked like. You wouldn't expect George Kirk to read about the attack from a little "Cage"-style printer attached to the sciences' console?
And why not?

Besides which, I'm not talking about the interior. I'm talking about the exterior. The outside as the design and engineering aesthetics of the 2280s, not the 2230s.
3D Master is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 10:54 AM   #129
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Calling the TOS Enterprise the "largest, most powerful" ship is speculation, nothing more.

The TOS Enterprise could be the most advanced, much like how Voyager had a few little technological improvements over the E-D, but don't mistake "biggest" for "best".
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 01:07 PM   #130
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Calling the TOS Enterprise the "largest, most powerful" ship is speculation, nothing more.

The TOS Enterprise could be the most advanced, much like how Voyager had a few little technological improvements over the E-D, but don't mistake "biggest" for "best".
Of course not, there are only about a hundred pieces of dialog and information in TOS that the Constitution-class is the largest most powerful class of ship in the fleet, but you'll just forget about that when it is inconvenient to your position.

Even if it were true, still won't help you with the design and engineering aesthetics.
3D Master is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 01:45 PM   #131
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post
Of course not, there are only about a hundred pieces of dialog and information in TOS that the Constitution-class is the largest most powerful class of ship in the fleet, but you'll just forget about that when it is inconvenient to your position.
I suppose you have examples of these pieces of dialog.
Hartzilla2007 is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 02:51 PM   #132
3D Master
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
3D Master wrote: View Post
Of course not, there are only about a hundred pieces of dialog and information in TOS that the Constitution-class is the largest most powerful class of ship in the fleet, but you'll just forget about that when it is inconvenient to your position.
I suppose you have examples of these pieces of dialog.
1. The dialog with military test in The Ultimate Computer facing of against the best the fleet has to offer.

2. The dialog in Bread and Circuses about how the Enterprise that Kirk commands isn't a mere spaceship that the traitor captain was commanding, a starship which was an entirely different thing.

3. How there are only twelve like it in the fleet; showing how advanced, new, and big it is.

And if I bother to rewatch the entire series I'm sure I can find more.
3D Master is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 06:04 PM   #133
I-Am-Zim
Captain
 
Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post
^This, when it comes to the ridges, however, there are many other problems.
Okay, the ridges may not be that big a deal. But they were to me. I would have preferred that Nero and his cronies look like the TNG-era Rommies that we are familiar with instead of Darth Maul with pointy ears. But that's just me.

3D Master wrote: View Post
The artificial Black Holes was mentioned.

The design aesthetic of the Romulan ships was mentioned, and I'd like to add; it's not just the 24th century ships, it's the 23rd TOS and even 22nd century ships as well: resembling birds of prey, with a bird's of prey's wings painted on the under side.
Agreed. But the more industrial Romulan ships my not have the BoP pained on them. However, there is a known design aesthetic among 24th century, TNG-era Romulan vessels that was clearly not followed in STXI. Now, I know "Countdown" mentions that the Narada was modified with some kind of Borg tech. I haven't bothered to read it, and I probably won't. And since it's not "canon" and the movie should be able to stand on its own without having to read a graphic novel or comic series to get the necessary background to fill in the blanks, "Countdown" is really a non-issue when discussing the merits of the movie itself. As for the Narada, Nero states that it is "a simple mining vessel". Not a "big, bad-ass, Borg-ified, tentacled killing machine from hell." If the Narada is a simple mining vessel in the 24th century, why do the Romulans even need Warbirds? The Narada clearly dwarfs any of those larger-than-Galaxy-class warbirds of the 24th century that we know of. It also apparently outguns them too. It's possible that the Romulan Warbirds in the Abramsverse 24th century may even be based upon those mining ships like the Narada, just with more powerful weapons.

3D Master wrote: View Post
Now for the ones not yet mentioned:

Spock being surprised in 2256 that Kirk is not the commander of the Enterprise, despite the fact that in the prime universe Kirk would still be a Lieutenant or Lieutenant Commander, probably serving on the Faragut; and Spock was serving under Captain Pike on the Enterprise. The Spock from the universe we've been following for the past 40 years, may be surprised Kirk isn't a Lieutenant on a ship, but not that he's not the Captain of the Enterprise.
That bugged me too. NuKirk was clearly younger than the Captain Kirk that the Spock that we know should have remembered. And I'm sure OldSpock knew what year it was. He's pretty smart. Also, Nero probably told him what year it was when he had him prisoner on the Narada. Cuz that's what maniacal madmen do when they monologue their schemes to the good guy they've just captured. But yes, to our Spock, Kirk should have been a rank or two under Captain at that time. And OldSpock should have known that.

3D Master wrote: View Post
The Kelvin is too big for Prime Universe ships of the same era, its design aesthetics are also 50 years in the Prime Universe's future. (2233 - 2280s). If this universe is the universe that Old Spock came from up until the moment of the Narada's arrival; that means that that universe would also have that Kelvin, which can't be the Prime Universe. Result; Old Spock origin is not the Prime Universe.
I definitely agree with this. The Kelvin just looked...wrong. That's not saying it wasn't a good looking ship. I liked the design. It just didn't look like an early 23rd century starship should. It looked too much like the TMP refit. Plus there was that lit-up deflector. That was totally out of place. The size issue is debatable. I tend to agree that it was too big, what with 40+/- shuttles!?!? That's one froggin gigantic ship the likes of which is never seen in Trek until at least the 24th century. And I don't even think the Galaxy class had that many shuttles. It just doesn't fit. Besides, the Kelvin scene was only 12 minutes. How hard would it have been to make the Kelvin and its bridge and engineering section look like something from TOS just for that short amount of time to make it clear that this was actually the TOS 23rd century that we know? Then they could have done whatever with the branched-off timeline and it wouldn't have mattered as much to fans like me.

3D Master wrote: View Post
In the same way, you can see many more differences in this universe, before the Narada even arrives; no shock at what a Romulan looks like from the Kelvin crew, along with a mere cadet knowing all of the Romulans' dialects, which is something the Prime Universe 24th century seems to have, suggestion long-time contact with Romulans, while in the Prime Universe the Romulans were not seen or heard from until 2266 by Kirk.
Agreed.

3D Master wrote: View Post
Nero being pissed off that "the Federation didn't help the Romulans" and him going on the assumption that Federation has an obligation to do so, produces a Romulan Star Empire; or rather a Romulan Nation that is a third world nation that's been the Federation's colony, a nation that could do nothing about their destruction themselves, and the ones that caused it have duties to those they weakened; not an equal, and enemy Star Empire whose alliance was needed to defeat the Dominion. Once more showing the Narada and Old Spock's origin to be that of a very different universe than the Prime one. (Which incidentally ties in with the differences noted above. It seems both the two universes / time lines depicted in the movie, are ones where the Humans / pre-curser Federation / Alliance didn't simply fight the Romulans back and then set up a peace treaty, but one where they conquered the Romulans entirely, and only slowly over time allowed them their independence again, while firmly keeping them down to stave off a repeat of the Romulan War.)
Absolutely! This paints the 24th century TNG-era Rommies in a totally different light. The TNG Rommies that we know are a highly technologically advenced species with enormous Warbirds that outsize and outgun Galaxy class starships. They use artificial singularitits to power their starships. Why would they need the Federation or Spock's help to neutralize the "galaxy-threatening (*chuckle*)" supernova? The Romulans we know were clearly advanced enough to handle this problem themselves. To me, that shows that the 24th century Rommies from the Abramsverse are clearly not the same ones that we know from TNG.
I-Am-Zim is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 06:50 PM   #134
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post

1. The dialog with military test in The Ultimate Computer facing of against the best the fleet has to offer.

2. The dialog in Bread and Circuses about how the Enterprise that Kirk commands isn't a mere spaceship that the traitor captain was commanding, a starship which was an entirely different thing.

3. How there are only twelve like it in the fleet; showing how advanced, new, and big it is.

And if I bother to rewatch the entire series I'm sure I can find more.
1. Again you're confusing "biggest" with "best".

2. The NX-01 was a starship 100 years previously. Spaceship probably applies to short-range vessels.

3. So what if there are only 12 connies? It's irrelevent to how big they are. At most it might suggest that some advanced components involved are hard to produce.

"It was the only ship we saw during TOS so it must be the biggest ever made" sounds small minded to me. Since when did technological advancement work that way?
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old May 24 2010, 06:54 PM   #135
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Devon wrote: View Post
So the mining vessel has to look like a bird of prey? Why? That's like saying all Starfleet vessels have to look the same. They don't.
Wrong, they do.
JarodRussell is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.