RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,791
Posts: 5,217,798
Members: 24,221
Currently online: 764
Newest member: soccerjerseys29

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 11 2010, 02:39 PM   #271
ProwlAlpha
Fleet Captain
 
ProwlAlpha's Avatar
 
Location: Florrum
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Why use that restart button? Oh yea, you hate everything about this film, including ranting about it other threads.
__________________
"As my sweet mother always said, 'son, if one hostage is good, two are better, and three, well, that's just good business!'"
ProwlAlpha is offline  
Old June 11 2010, 02:42 PM   #272
I-Am-Zim
Captain
 
Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Yep. I'm just a big ol' ranting person who rants...and stuff.
I-Am-Zim is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 04:54 AM   #273
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Gallifrey Falls
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
What rewrite? What are you talking about?
Spock "letting" Nero do anything... Spock "barely batting an eye"... etc.

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Yep. So why didn't NuOldSpock at least make some kind of effort to repair the damage done by Nero before it ever happened?
It's too late for that; from the POV of the Abramsverse inhabitants, it irrevocably happened. The most he could do would be to leave the Abramsverse and travel into the past, creating another branch. It's right there in the post you quoted: The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. This also applies to Spock's assumed responsibilities in the future of the Abramsverse. He could supposedly leave the Abramsverse, but to do so within the limited timeframe of STXI would be neglecting those responsibilities needlessly ( and, unlike the Spock we know, behaving selfishly and irrationally ). If traveling to the past is an option which is available to him, there is no ticking clock. He literally has all the time in the world.
__________________
"In the future... do I make it?"
"No."

Last edited by Set Harth; June 17 2010 at 05:07 AM.
Set Harth is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 02:31 PM   #274
I-Am-Zim
Captain
 
Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
What rewrite? What are you talking about?
Spock "letting" Nero do anything... Spock "barely batting an eye"... etc.
That's not a "rewrite". It's simple observation based on what was seen on screen.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Yep. So why didn't NuOldSpock at least make some kind of effort to repair the damage done by Nero before it ever happened?
It's too late for that; from the POV of the Abramsverse inhabitants, it irrevocably happened. The most he could do would be to leave the Abramsverse and travel into the past, creating another branch. It's right there in the post you quoted: The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. This also applies to Spock's assumed responsibilities in the future of the Abramsverse. He could supposedly leave the Abramsverse, but to do so within the limited timeframe of STXI would be neglecting those responsibilities needlessly ( and, unlike the Spock we know, behaving selfishly and irrationally ). If traveling to the past is an option which is available to him, there is no ticking clock. He literally has all the time in the world.
If NuOldSpock is indeed the Spock from the original TOS universe (which is still debatable as far as I'm concerned), then he had access to numerous methods of time travel at his disposal. He would have knowledge of these methods having used many of them in the original universe. And since NuOldSpock is "supposed to be" from the original TOS universe, he would have probably viewed this time travel incident as working the same way it did in the original universe - bad guy goes back in time and changes past, good guys go back again (along the same timeline) and fix changes. If he were from the original universe, the branched off timeline premise wouldn't apply because it didn't apply in the original universe. My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet (if he did indeed believe that NuVulcan was "his" home planet).

Last edited by I-Am-Zim; June 17 2010 at 02:50 PM.
I-Am-Zim is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 02:56 PM   #275
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

^Except, as I've said before, to do so would doom Romulus (Spock's home for 20+ years) and Remus in the 24th century. It also runs the risk of going very horribly wrong and creating a timeline where Nero destroyed the Federation, and Spock Prime is dead and thus cannot attempt another "fix".
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 02:59 PM   #276
I-Am-Zim
Captain
 
Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

There are always risks. Spock risked his life to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to save Earth, which isn't even his home planet. So why wouldn't he do the same to save his own homeworld? And why would it doom Romulus? Spock could easily warn Romulus of the impending superduperincrediblyfrakkingiganticnova that's about to destroy them with plenty of time to spare.
I-Am-Zim is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 03:01 PM   #277
Admiral Buzzkill
The Legend
 
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
What rewrite? What are you talking about?
Spock "letting" Nero do anything... Spock "barely batting an eye"... etc.
That's not a "rewrite". It's simple observation based on what was seen on screen.
Not very observant at all. Using the passive voice "what was seen on screen" enables you to avoid the perhaps uncomfortable construction "what I saw on screen," unreasonably suggesting that your limited observations are universal or even widespread.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 03:45 PM   #278
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
There are always risks. Spock risked his life to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to save Earth, which isn't even his home planet. So why wouldn't he do the same to save his own homeworld? And why would it doom Romulus? Spock could easily warn Romulus of the impending superduperincrediblyfrakkingiganticnova that's about to destroy them with plenty of time to spare.
Maybe the 160something-year-old Spock thinks that this time the risks are too great. There are no weapons available that can hurt the Narada, Spock Prime doesn't have any Red Matter or the Jellyfish with it's 24th century phasers.

Maybe he's following the Temporal Prime Directive (which didn't exist in the TOS era) - these alternate versions of the people he knew have just as much right to exist as his versions of them do - and his supposedly still exist somewhen in the multiverse (and since the writers of the movie use multiverse theory, Spock Prime knows about it, too)
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old June 17 2010, 10:01 PM   #279
OneBuckFilms
Fleet Captain
 
OneBuckFilms's Avatar
 
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
There are always risks. Spock risked his life to go back to the 1980's and get a couple of whales to save Earth, which isn't even his home planet. So why wouldn't he do the same to save his own homeworld? And why would it doom Romulus? Spock could easily warn Romulus of the impending superduperincrediblyfrakkingiganticnova that's about to destroy them with plenty of time to spare.
Maybe the 160something-year-old Spock thinks that this time the risks are too great. There are no weapons available that can hurt the Narada, Spock Prime doesn't have any Red Matter or the Jellyfish with it's 24th century phasers.

Maybe he's following the Temporal Prime Directive (which didn't exist in the TOS era) - these alternate versions of the people he knew have just as much right to exist as his versions of them do - and his supposedly still exist somewhen in the multiverse (and since the writers of the movie use multiverse theory, Spock Prime knows about it, too)
There is evidence, in the conversation between Old Spock and NuSpock (for lack of other differentiating term).

There's dialogue to the effect that Spock Prime implied to Kirk (ie lied) by inferring that universe-ending paradoxes would ensue should his presense be revealed to his younger self.

This was the "act of faith" he had in the friendship that would define NuSpock and NuKirk "more than they realized".
OneBuckFilms is offline  
Old June 21 2010, 01:02 AM   #280
Gep Malakai
Vice Admiral
 
Gep Malakai's Avatar
 
Send a message via AIM to Gep Malakai Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Gep Malakai
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
If NuOldSpock is indeed the Spock from the original TOS universe (which is still debatable as far as I'm concerned), then he had access to numerous methods of time travel at his disposal. He would have knowledge of these methods having used many of them in the original universe....My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet (if he did indeed believe that NuVulcan was "his" home planet).
That's true of every disaster that's ever been in Star Trek. Every time something has gone horribly wrong, somebody could take a ship, fly around a star and go back and fix it: tell Commodore Decker to stay out of the way of that planet killer, divert the USS Intrepid away from the giant space amoeba, warn Sisko and company to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and so on. The only reason they don't is because then nobody could ever tell interesting stories again. If we accept easy time travel in the Star Trek universe, we also have to accept that characters will forget, based on the needs of the story, that they can hop into the past any time they feel like it. The new film is no different in that regard.
__________________
"From the darkness you must fall, failed and weak, to darkness all."
-Kataris
Gep Malakai is offline  
Old June 21 2010, 12:31 PM   #281
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
If NuOldSpock is indeed the Spock from the original TOS universe (which is still debatable as far as I'm concerned), then he had access to numerous methods of time travel at his disposal. He would have knowledge of these methods having used many of them in the original universe....My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet (if he did indeed believe that NuVulcan was "his" home planet).
That's true of every disaster that's ever been in Star Trek. Every time something has gone horribly wrong, somebody could take a ship, fly around a star and go back and fix it: tell Commodore Decker to stay out of the way of that planet killer, divert the USS Intrepid away from the giant space amoeba, warn Sisko and company to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and so on. The only reason they don't is because then nobody could ever tell interesting stories again. If we accept easy time travel in the Star Trek universe, we also have to accept that characters will forget, based on the needs of the story, that they can hop into the past any time they feel like it. The new film is no different in that regard.
The in-universe reason why they don't do it is because they have the Temporal Prime Directive, Temporal Investigators and in later centuries Timeships that undo violations of the timeline.

Nobody would be allowed to stop Sisko from travelling to the Gamma Quadrant, because that was simply the natural flow of things.

And nobody would allow Nero to fuck up the past over a period of 25 years and kill 6 billion people. Somebody on one of the timeships would notice (since this timeships are unaffected by the changes), and prevent Nero from coming out of the black hole in front of the Kelvin and destroying her.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline  
Old June 21 2010, 12:55 PM   #282
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
If NuOldSpock is indeed the Spock from the original TOS universe (which is still debatable as far as I'm concerned), then he had access to numerous methods of time travel at his disposal. He would have knowledge of these methods having used many of them in the original universe....My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet (if he did indeed believe that NuVulcan was "his" home planet).
That's true of every disaster that's ever been in Star Trek. Every time something has gone horribly wrong, somebody could take a ship, fly around a star and go back and fix it: tell Commodore Decker to stay out of the way of that planet killer, divert the USS Intrepid away from the giant space amoeba, warn Sisko and company to stay out of the Gamma quadrant, and so on. The only reason they don't is because then nobody could ever tell interesting stories again. If we accept easy time travel in the Star Trek universe, we also have to accept that characters will forget, based on the needs of the story, that they can hop into the past any time they feel like it. The new film is no different in that regard.
The in-universe reason why they don't do it is because they have the Temporal Prime Directive, Temporal Investigators and in later centuries Timeships that undo violations of the timeline.

Nobody would be allowed to stop Sisko from travelling to the Gamma Quadrant, because that was simply the natural flow of things.

And nobody would allow Nero to fuck up the past over a period of 25 years and kill 6 billion people. Somebody on one of the timeships would notice (since this timeships are unaffected by the changes), and prevent Nero from coming out of the black hole in front of the Kelvin and destroying her.
Perhaps it's because from Daniels' is from the alternate future Nero created, and it's part of the normal flow of events from POV, that he doesn't interfere? Maybe Braxton and co from Voyager weren't involved because they only police the TOS+ era of the Prime timeline.

It's a time police jurisdiction thing .
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old June 21 2010, 01:24 PM   #283
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Maybe Braxton and co from Voyager weren't involved because they only police the TOS+ era of the Prime timeline.

It's a time police jurisdiction thing .
LOL, what sense does it make to only guard a section of a timeline? Something that happens before would influence everything after it. And a ship that is disconnected from the timeline (like it was depicted in Voyager) would notice any changes and do something about them, no matter when they happened.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline  
Old June 21 2010, 02:38 PM   #284
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Considering it was Daniels' job was to keep an eye on the 22nd century-era of the Temporal Cold War it would seem that those in charge of the show chose to give him jurasdiction over "time policing" there/then.

But really, what sense do time police make at all?

None. There were so many holes in Daniels' story alone I find it hard to believe he's capable of doing anything more than crying to Captain Archer for help. The Voyager time police were hapless idiots who, both times they showed up, were the cause of the trouble they were sent to prevent.

Considering their track record, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the time police tried and failed to stop Nero.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline  
Old June 22 2010, 02:22 AM   #285
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Gallifrey Falls
Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
That's not a "rewrite". It's simple observation based on what was seen on screen.
On screen, Spock didn't "let" Nero do anything.

You're still thinking of BasherSpok, hero of the rewrite.

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
If he were from the original universe, the branched off timeline premise wouldn't apply because it didn't apply in the original universe.
There were alternate timelines in previous canon, aka "the original universe".

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
My point is that the Spock we know from the TOS universe would more than likely have at least made some effort to try to figure out a way to go back and save the six billion inhabitants of his home planet
But the "Spock we know from the TOS universe" would have stayed around to assist the Abramsverse Federation and Vulcans before doing so. BasherSpok, on the other hand, would have just given those people the collective finger.

Besides, he doesn't need to "figure out a way"; he already knows a way.

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
And since NuOldSpock is "supposed to be" from the original TOS universe, he would have probably viewed this time travel incident as working the same way it did in the original universe
Unless, of course, he is in fact logical.

( I know, I know: TOS Spock? Logical? Madness! )
__________________
"In the future... do I make it?"
"No."

Last edited by Set Harth; June 22 2010 at 02:42 AM.
Set Harth is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.