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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 31 2010, 02:15 PM   #256
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Devon wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
The Spock in STXI didn't remind me of the original Spock.
Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?

Hmm. Odd.
The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.

Devon wrote: View Post
(transwarp beaming, anyone?).
Nope, no one.
Yep. Quite a few, actually. You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.

Last edited by I-Am-Zim; May 31 2010 at 02:27 PM.
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Old May 31 2010, 02:28 PM   #257
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Can this be merged with the "Circumstancial Evidence" thread? It's stupid having two identical threads here, not to mention the identical "Where Did Spock Go?" one in the TOS section and probably other clone threads hidden elsewhere.

There can be only one!
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Old May 31 2010, 02:32 PM   #258
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Can this be merged with the "Circumstancial Evidence" thread? It's stupid having two identical threads here, not to mention the identical "Where Did Spock Go?" one in the TOS section and probably other clone threads hidden elsewhere.

There can be only one!
That's actually not a bad idea. Mods?
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Old May 31 2010, 08:12 PM   #259
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Can this be merged with the "Circumstancial Evidence" thread? It's stupid having two identical threads here, not to mention the identical "Where Did Spock Go?" one in the TOS section and probably other clone threads hidden elsewhere.

There can be only one!
Oh, there are definitely clone threads; this particular topic has been kicked around the block several times already in this forum alone. There's not much I can do about the thread in the TOS forum (and I suspect the originator of that thread had very definite reasons for posting it where he did) but I think I can manage to splice this and the "Circumstantial Evidence" thread together. (Any resulting anomalies will be yours to navigate.)

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Old May 31 2010, 08:15 PM   #260
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Except, Sisko explained the ship was designed to fight the Borg in the aftermath of Wolf 359.
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Old May 31 2010, 08:26 PM   #261
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Having followed another franchise that deals with numerous alternate realities, Star Trek Xl seem to clearly not be an alternate reality. I have read how the date issues could be explained away and so on. But at its core, Star Trek Xl, to me, has replaced the original timeline. I just finished watching it again on DVD, and if you set aside all of the nit picks and so on, it just feels like your basic time travel story. Guy from future goes back in time, changes past. And while most of the time they change it back, it did not happen here and this is the Trek that we will have from here on out (until the next reboot?)
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Old May 31 2010, 11:04 PM   #262
Devon
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Devon wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
The Spock in STXI didn't remind me of the original Spock.
Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?

Hmm. Odd.
The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.
Which one? The one that smiled and laughed early on? The one who was playing an emotional teeter totter with his vulcan/human emotions? The one who got angrier as the movies went on? The whole "He doesn't remind me of the original series Spock" is just more of one's own personal commentary on Nimoy's acting considering Spock transitioned throughout the "TOS Universe."

Yep. Quite a few, actually.
Still equates to no one.

You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.
There is no argument.
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Old May 31 2010, 11:08 PM   #263
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Shinzon wrote: View Post
So the Nerada goes through the blackhole and destroys the Kelvin - from that momment on we are seeing an alternate reality. When Spock travels back why does he end up in that reality? essentially he has shifted dimension aswell as time travel - shouldnt he of just emerged in the 23rd century of his own universe/timeline??
We don't know what the rules are. Maybe this black hole leads to an alternate universe and a different time, whereas others just lead to an alternate universe/same time, or same universe/different time.

Black holes work however sci fi writers want them to work.
Star Trek Xl seem to clearly not be an alternate reality.
The writers had the crew stand around and recite lines whose sole purpose was transparently to communicate to the audience that, yes, THIS IS AN ALTERNATE REALITY. The crew should not be able to know that, because there is no way to tell the difference between alternate reality and a changed timeline within your own reality, when you are "inside" the timeline/reality.

So the conversation was nonsensical in the context of the movie and could only have existed to inform the audience of the writers' intention. The whole thing was handled in such a ham-handed manner - it took me right outta the movie - that I'm amazed so many people missed it. How much bigger of a sledgehammer did you want the writers to use, anyway?

And while most of the time they change it back, it did not happen here and this is the Trek that we will have from here on out (until the next reboot?)
Yes, this is what we'll have from here on out, because it's not time travel. They're in a different universe and nobody knows how to get back to the original. And only Spock would want to get back, since everyone else is already in their original universe, and I doubt we'll see Nimoy in subsequent movies.
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Old May 31 2010, 11:32 PM   #264
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

A refresher on the movie's intent:

Nero went back in time from 2387 (8 years after Star Trek Nemesis) to 2233. Despite updated visuals this 2233 is supposed to be, up until the "lightning storm" that diverted the Kelvin, the same timeline as TOS/TNG and the rest. By altering events Nero created an alternate timeline. It's that alternate timeline that Spock Prime emerged into in 2258.

In 2258 the Enterprise crew realized they're in an alternate timeline because Nero's (who was never supposed to be there) actions had changed all their lives. The reason it's alternate is simply because it's not the way history is "meant" to be (which is the TOS timeline, itself the result of endless time-tampering during Enterprise).

Makes sense to me.
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Old June 1 2010, 12:12 AM   #265
Denny_Crane
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?/Why did spock end up in alt. universe?[Me

Star Trek Xl seem to clearly not be an alternate reality.
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
The writers had the crew stand around and recite lines whose sole purpose was transparently to communicate to the audience that, yes, THIS IS AN ALTERNATE REALITY. The crew should not be able to know that, because there is no way to tell the difference between alternate reality and a changed timeline within your own reality, when you are "inside" the timeline/reality.

So the conversation was nonsensical in the context of the movie and could only have existed to inform the audience of the writers' intention. The whole thing was handled in such a ham-handed manner - it took me right outta the movie - that I'm amazed so many people missed it. How much bigger of a sledgehammer did you want the writers to use, anyway?
I think you missed the point of her saying that. Uhura only said it was an alternate reality in reference to Spocks comment that the past HAD been changed. That Nero would not know the events that would take place because reality had been altered. The past had been altered.

Also, there were I believe a couple other instances where they call it out as the past having been changed, not that this was a different reality. They said "Hey, your lives are different now" not "Hey, there is now another doppelganger running around"

And while most of the time they change it back, it did not happen here and this is the Trek that we will have from here on out (until the next reboot?)
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Yes, this is what we'll have from here on out, because it's not time travel. They're in a different universe and nobody knows how to get back to the original. And only Spock would want to get back, since everyone else is already in their original universe, and I doubt we'll see Nimoy in subsequent movies.
Except that he didn't. Because he knows what's done is done. It would be better to rebuild his race then to try to maybe "fix" things.

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
A refresher on the movie's intent:

Nero went back in time from 2387 (8 years after Star Trek Nemesis) to 2233. Despite updated visuals this 2233 is supposed to be, up until the "lightning storm" that diverted the Kelvin, the same timeline as TOS/TNG and the rest. By altering events Nero created an alternate timeline. It's that alternate timeline that Spock Prime emerged into in 2258.

In 2258 the Enterprise crew realized they're in an alternate timeline because Nero's (who was never supposed to be there) actions had changed all their lives. The reason it's alternate is simply because it's not the way history is "meant" to be (which is the TOS timeline, itself the result of endless time-tampering during Enterprise).

Makes sense to me.
Exactly!

Plus, any change in the look can be attributed to a new creative team and/or change in technology. That is just one of the things you "accept" with franchises that span decades...
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Old June 1 2010, 02:15 PM   #266
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Devon wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Devon wrote: View Post

Which version of the original Spock are you referring to?

Hmm. Odd.
The one from the original TOS universe. Hmmm. Odd that you didn't pick up on that.
Which one? The one that smiled and laughed early on? The one who was playing an emotional teeter totter with his vulcan/human emotions? The one who got angrier as the movies went on? The whole "He doesn't remind me of the original series Spock" is just more of one's own personal commentary on Nimoy's acting considering Spock transitioned throughout the "TOS Universe."
Yeppers. You got it. It's a matter of opinion. As is your interpretation. My opinion is that NuOldSpock doesn't remind me of the Spock that I remember from TOS, the movies, and TNG. He seems too passive. NuOldSpock would rather let (the alternate universe version of) his planet die than try to find a way (and there are a multitude of them) to go back and fix what Nero did. Although he and Nero spoke of this alternate reality as if it were their actual past and present, NuOldSpock may have known he was in an alternate universe and that "his" Vulcan was alive and well in his original universe. But if so, why was he "emotionally compromized" by losing his planet - "I just lost my planet" is what he said. Anyway, TOS-Spock risked his life to go back in time to get a couple of whales to save Earth. Yet he just sits back and lets 'his' home planet go bye-bye while barely batting an eye. No, this ain't the Spock I know.

Devon wrote: View Post
Yep. Quite a few, actually.
Still equates to no one.
According to you. Which really doesn't mean a whole lot.

Devon wrote: View Post
You really need to read some of these threads you post in instead of attempting to bait me into some kind of argument. It's getting pretty old.
There is no argument.
Oh there's plenty. You just refuse to see it.

But, I'm not getting into this with you again. Your sole purpose here seems to be enticing me and others who don't share your opinions into arguing with you. I'm not here to argue. I'm here to discuss. If you can't contribute to the discussion, then don't respond. Have a nice day.

Last edited by I-Am-Zim; June 2 2010 at 02:28 AM.
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Old June 10 2010, 11:11 PM   #267
Set Harth
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Yet he just sits back and lets 'his' home planet go bye-bye while barely batting an eye.
Except that isn't what happened, it's a rewrite. He was powerless to stop it from happening while marooned on Delta Vega, while he has the rest of his life to try and find it in another universe if that's to be seen as his motivation, and:

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
why was he "emotionally compromized" by losing his planet
Was he? Make up your mind.

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
No, this ain't the Spock I know.
Yes, the Spock appearing in your rewrite of STXI is indeed unrecognizable.
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Old June 10 2010, 11:55 PM   #268
Set Harth
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
My opinion is that NuOldSpock doesn't remind me of the Spock that I remember from TOS, the movies, and TNG.
The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. BasherSpok, on the other hand? Not so much. BasherSpok doesn't give a crap about those people. It's all about Vulcan with that guy.

I hate BasherSpok. Good thing he didn't appear in STXI.
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Old June 11 2010, 02:29 PM   #269
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
Yet he just sits back and lets 'his' home planet go bye-bye while barely batting an eye.
Except that isn't what happened, it's a rewrite. He was powerless to stop it from happening while marooned on Delta Vega, while he has the rest of his life to try and find it in another universe if that's to be seen as his motivation, and:
What rewrite? What are you talking about? True, he was powerless on NuDelta Hoth. But what about when he was rescued? He ended up back at Starfleet. He probably had access to all kinds of previously explored time travel devices. Yet he decided to just find a new planet upon which to establish a Vulcan colony instead of trying to right the wrong done by Nero. I think TOS-Spock would have at least tried.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
why was he "emotionally compromized" by losing his planet
Was he? Make up your mind.
Yes. He was. IIRC, his exact words were: "I've just lost my planet. I can tell you, I am emotionally compromised."

That line gave the sense that NuOldSpock seemed to feel that NuVulcan was, indeed "his" Vulcan and not an alternate universe version of Vulcan.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
No, this ain't the Spock I know.
Yes, the Spock appearing in your rewrite of STXI is indeed unrecognizable.
I still don't get the rewrite thing. I haven't rewritten anything. Where are you getting that from?
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Old June 11 2010, 02:31 PM   #270
I-Am-Zim
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Re: Why did spock end up in the alternate universe??

Set Harth wrote: View Post
I-Am-Zim wrote: View Post
My opinion is that NuOldSpock doesn't remind me of the Spock that I remember from TOS, the movies, and TNG.
The "Spock we know" believed that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. He would have wanted to save the larger number of lives threatened in the Abramsverse Federation before embarking on any quest to "save" Vulcan by traveling to a time in which it still existed. BasherSpok, on the other hand? Not so much. BasherSpok doesn't give a crap about those people. It's all about Vulcan with that guy.

I hate BasherSpok. Good thing he didn't appear in STXI.
Yep. So why didn't NuOldSpock at least make some kind of effort to repair the damage done by Nero before it ever happened? We know from 40+ years of Star Trek that time travel is a frequently used tool to repair damage done by other time travellers. NuOldSpock had numerous resources at his disposal once he found his way back to Earth.

"BasherSpok"?
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