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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 28 2010, 11:39 AM   #196
Pauln6
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
We don't know what alternate Kirk did at the Academy in his three years there. We do know he's a genius (they said it twice).

And for the last time it's not 8-9 years! The TOS we saw started in 2264. That's six years after STXI's 2258. Plus travel time to the edge of the galaxy? Who says TOS was Kirk's first Enterprise five-year mission?

And please provide a quote if you can that backs up your assertation that Kirk Prime was captain of anything anywhere before the Enterprise. The writer's guides and Making of Star Trek don't count.
I think TOS started in 2265 (the 65 being equivalent to the 1965 when it was made). Plus Original Kirk attended the Acadamy as a teenager.

I think the timeline is a bit fuzzy. Riker mentions how young Kirk was when he made captain (younger than 30?) in one of the episodes where he's being pressured to accept promotion. If there is a reference somewhere to how long Kirk had been in charge of the Enterprise then the difference will give us an indication that he was captain of another ship in between. Even if he was only ever Captain of the Enterprise, he was certainly a captain for a while before the 5-year mission but he only mentions one 5-year mission in TMP.

I think the point is that Kirk was made a captain when he was older than 25 after spending 4 years at the acadamy (18-22) and then roughly 7 years as a sub-ordinate. He's older than NuKirk and far more experienced AND he's made decisions he regrets. NuKirk is definitely a very different animal and, based on what we've seen so far, is likely to end up with a higher body count than the original as he favours high risk strategies.
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Old May 28 2010, 12:22 PM   #197
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I think the events we saw at the beginning took place in the Prime Universe. There's nothing to say that the Kelvin wasn't a logical design evolution from the NX01.

After a Federation ship was destroyed by a Romulan ship in 2233, Starfleet learned about the Romulan/Vulcan connection much more quickly, and this started a whole chain of events which led to them becoming more militaristic, and designing bigger, beefier ships. As for Chekov being born in a different time.. well, maybe his parents conceived earlier in this timeline?
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Old May 28 2010, 01:55 PM   #198
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
About the Nerada not looking like a traditional Romulan ship:
Comparing a warbird and a mining ship would be like comparing a sports car and a combine harvester. Built for different tasks, they (shock!) look different.
I agree to an extent. A mining vessel should not, and probably would not look like a Warbird. They are built for different purposes. However, I find it implausible that a "simple mining vessel" would be five miles long and look like a tentacled killing machine from Hell. I think the menacing look and sheer size of the Narada is where the problem lies. Why would a mining ship be larger and seemingly more powerful than a Warbird from the same era? If the simple mining vessels of the 24th century Romulan Empire can dwarf a Warbird, why even have Warbirds? Just modify the giant squid mining ships for combat? They could swallow a Galaxy class starship and spit the charred remains out the plasma exhaust. The Romulan Empire would be invincible! Mwhahahahahaha!
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Old May 28 2010, 02:16 PM   #199
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

I can imagine that the vessel could be huge (space to carry large amounts of ore) and I can see why the engines would have to be powerful to power the drill (although that need not equate to higher speeds as issues such as the structural integrity field and engine integrity would limit these things). I can see why it would be sensible to have a cloaking device on board to avoid pirates. I can see why powerful tractor beams make sense, as do massive industrial transporters.

I can see no reason why the ship would need to be fitted with powerful weapons or powerful shields, let alone massively powerful weapons capable of carving up a fleet of 47 Klingon ships quickly followed by 7 Federation ships.

It would have been better to me if the destruction of the Kelvin had been keyed off something unique to a mining vessel (like mining charges or a blast from the drill rupturing the engines). If the Narada was kitted out with topical weapons from various TOS era aliens and staffed by multi-racial mercenaries collected over 25 years, Nero would have been a far more credible villain to me.

The mega-powerful 'simple mining vessel' from the future is a cheap excuse to justify making the vessel a threat. A threat I can buy, but a threat to over 50 ships without breaking a sweat not so much.
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Old May 28 2010, 08:58 PM   #200
Dukhat
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

3D Master wrote: View Post
Yeah, I've heard those fans of Enterprise. They spent there time cussing out the finale and who created even harder than I have.
One can be a huge fan of ENTERPRISE and still hate the finale, believe it or not.

Right. So a claim of change from a
TNG-character about one method that Spock used, is used to justify the claim of completely different behavior in TOS and the movies.

You do understand this does not compute, right?
What doesn't compute is how this is any different from how Spock acts in the movie.

They are not plausible reasons. Unless you're blind, you notice a staggering 9 year difference in age; and once he did know the difference he wouldn't be saying Kirk needs to command the Enterprise to set the time right.
If you lived to be 175, or however old Spock is by now, do you honestly think you'd remember the exact dates of things that happened when you were in your 30's? Especially when there's a history of Bendii Syndrome in your family? (No, Spock didn't show any signs of that in the movie, but it's still a valid excuse, if one were to even need such and excuse, which one really doesn't). And it was more like five years, not nine. And really, it's just an insubstantial thing to argue about. Abrams's job wasn't to be responsible for knowing every insignificant detail of Trek canon in an effort to cater to obsessive-compulsive fans. His job was to make a movie that would make lots of money and make Star Trek popular again. To more than just a few bitter TOS fans who hardly matter in the large scheme of things.
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Old May 29 2010, 02:18 AM   #201
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I can imagine that the vessel could be huge (space to carry large amounts of ore) and I can see why the engines would have to be powerful to power the drill (although that need not equate to higher speeds as issues such as the structural integrity field and engine integrity would limit these things). I can see why it would be sensible to have a cloaking device on board to avoid pirates. I can see why powerful tractor beams make sense, as do massive industrial transporters.

I can see no reason why the ship would need to be fitted with powerful weapons or powerful shields,
So why should it not have powerful weapons or powerful shields? It's going to be carrying precious cargo.
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Old May 29 2010, 12:07 PM   #202
Pauln6
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Devon wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I can imagine that the vessel could be huge (space to carry large amounts of ore) and I can see why the engines would have to be powerful to power the drill (although that need not equate to higher speeds as issues such as the structural integrity field and engine integrity would limit these things). I can see why it would be sensible to have a cloaking device on board to avoid pirates. I can see why powerful tractor beams make sense, as do massive industrial transporters.

I can see no reason why the ship would need to be fitted with powerful weapons or powerful shields,
So why should it not have powerful weapons or powerful shields? It's going to be carrying precious cargo.
Because it's not a warship and it has a cloak. It's not built for fighting, it's built for mining and transporting.
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Old May 29 2010, 01:16 PM   #203
JarodRussell
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Devon wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I can imagine that the vessel could be huge (space to carry large amounts of ore) and I can see why the engines would have to be powerful to power the drill (although that need not equate to higher speeds as issues such as the structural integrity field and engine integrity would limit these things). I can see why it would be sensible to have a cloaking device on board to avoid pirates. I can see why powerful tractor beams make sense, as do massive industrial transporters.

I can see no reason why the ship would need to be fitted with powerful weapons or powerful shields,
So why should it not have powerful weapons or powerful shields? It's going to be carrying precious cargo.
How many ships today that carry precious cargo carry torpedoes and heavy machine guns? Most of the time all they have are water cannons. Terrorists in tiny boats can easily capture them.
The Narada should actually be just the space equivalent of a moving oil rig. How many oil rigs are there that can sink an aircraft carrier?
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Old May 29 2010, 01:30 PM   #204
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

One could easily argue Nerada's missiles were designed to smash large asteroids. Why the infinite supply? Replicators. Nerada's from the 24th century, where DS9 had a dodgy-science "self-replicating minefield" and Federation ships never run out of torpedoes (not even Voyager which fired far more than the thirtysomething they claimed were left on board a few episodes in)

The Countdown comic is the only place the Nerada has a cloaking device.
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Old May 29 2010, 01:30 PM   #205
Dukhat
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Devon wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
I can imagine that the vessel could be huge (space to carry large amounts of ore) and I can see why the engines would have to be powerful to power the drill (although that need not equate to higher speeds as issues such as the structural integrity field and engine integrity would limit these things). I can see why it would be sensible to have a cloaking device on board to avoid pirates. I can see why powerful tractor beams make sense, as do massive industrial transporters.

I can see no reason why the ship would need to be fitted with powerful weapons or powerful shields,
So why should it not have powerful weapons or powerful shields? It's going to be carrying precious cargo.
How many ships today that carry precious cargo carry torpedoes and heavy machine guns? Most of the time all they have are water cannons. Terrorists in tiny boats can easily capture them.
The Narada should actually be just the space equivalent of a moving oil rig. How many oil rigs are there that can sink an aircraft carrier?
You're comparing a 21st century Earth oil rig with a late 24th century Romulan mining spacecraft. Because we know nothing about how a fictitious totalitarian alien race from almost 400 years in the future decides to arm their mining vessels, there's really no comparison between the two. The Narada is what it is.
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Old May 29 2010, 01:33 PM   #206
JarodRussell
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Devon wrote: View Post

So why should it not have powerful weapons or powerful shields? It's going to be carrying precious cargo.
How many ships today that carry precious cargo carry torpedoes and heavy machine guns? Most of the time all they have are water cannons. Terrorists in tiny boats can easily capture them.
The Narada should actually be just the space equivalent of a moving oil rig. How many oil rigs are there that can sink an aircraft carrier?
You're comparing a 21st century Earth oil rig with a late 24th century Romulan mining spacecraft. Because we know nothing about how a fictitious totalitarian alien race from almost 400 years in the future decides to arm their mining vessels, there's really no comparison between the two. The Narada is what it is.
I'm just looking at the last 400 to 600 years of naval history and there never were heavily armed cargo ships that could take on war ships because it simply makes no sense to build those.
An oil rig of today can't sink a battleship of the 19th century.

What dangers are there for a mining ship deep inside Romulan territory? I guess the Empire is under strict control, and such a thing as pirates is easily dealt with. A Warbird that can take on a Galaxy class ship, paired with the Romulan mentality, that leaves no room for pirates capturing ships with precious cargo.
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Old May 29 2010, 01:38 PM   #207
Dukhat
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

How many ships today that carry precious cargo carry torpedoes and heavy machine guns? Most of the time all they have are water cannons. Terrorists in tiny boats can easily capture them.
The Narada should actually be just the space equivalent of a moving oil rig. How many oil rigs are there that can sink an aircraft carrier?
You're comparing a 21st century Earth oil rig with a late 24th century Romulan mining spacecraft. Because we know nothing about how a fictitious totalitarian alien race from almost 400 years in the future decides to arm their mining vessels, there's really no comparison between the two. The Narada is what it is.
I'm just looking at the last 400 to 600 years of naval history and there never were heavily armed cargo ships that could take on war ships. An oil rig of today can't sink a battleship of the 19th century.
That may be true of our real naval history, but so what? As I just said, that's just pushing our mores onto a fictitious alien race that has been warlike for the last 2,000 years. Why would the Romulans think anything like the last 400 to 600 years of Earth history?
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Old May 29 2010, 01:49 PM   #208
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post

You're comparing a 21st century Earth oil rig with a late 24th century Romulan mining spacecraft. Because we know nothing about how a fictitious totalitarian alien race from almost 400 years in the future decides to arm their mining vessels, there's really no comparison between the two. The Narada is what it is.
I'm just looking at the last 400 to 600 years of naval history and there never were heavily armed cargo ships that could take on war ships. An oil rig of today can't sink a battleship of the 19th century.
That may be true of our real naval history, but so what? As I just said, that's just pushing our mores onto a fictitious alien race that has been warlike for the last 2,000 years. Why would the Romulans think anything like the last 400 to 600 years of Earth history?
You can go back even further than that. The Romulan Empire is modelled after the Roman Empire. You won't find heavily armed cargo ships there either.

It makes no sense realistically (because you simply divide between civilian cargo transports and military ships), and no sense for the fictional model of a Roman Empire in space.

Look to the airforce. Military transport planes. Do they have missiles and machine guns? No, they have a decoy system for heat seeking and radar missiles, but use ALL the available place they have for cargo transport.

It's ALWAYS the same principle. If you carry precious cargo, you carry precious cargo, because space is money. You don't build an oil tanker that wastes precious space for ammunition. Even a weapons transport won't be able to fight back.
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Old May 29 2010, 02:00 PM   #209
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
That may be true of our real naval history, but so what? As I just said, that's just pushing our mores onto a fictitious alien race that has been warlike for the last 2,000 years. Why would the Romulans think anything like the last 400 to 600 years of Earth history?
Uh... because they're not stupid?

Well, of course, you think that the Romulans who have artificial black holes powering their ships, need Spock to create an artificial black hole to protect their planets from a super nova, so those Romulans are stupid, so in that would work out.

You see, the rest of us, work under the assumption they are not stupid, and thus would not need Spock to create that black hole, or create the Narada, arm it with whatever, nor would they fail to notice a super nova building over the centuries and millennia right on their doorstep, they wouldn't fail to prepare accordingly, they wouldn't try to stop a super nova with a black hole to begin with, because black holes would only make the super nova worse, etc. etc.

It's where our reasoning "this isn't the Prime universe we know" comes from.
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Old May 29 2010, 02:18 PM   #210
Dukhat
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Re: Circumstantial Evidence?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

I'm just looking at the last 400 to 600 years of naval history and there never were heavily armed cargo ships that could take on war ships. An oil rig of today can't sink a battleship of the 19th century.
That may be true of our real naval history, but so what? As I just said, that's just pushing our mores onto a fictitious alien race that has been warlike for the last 2,000 years. Why would the Romulans think anything like the last 400 to 600 years of Earth history?
You can go back even further than that. The Romulan Empire is modelled after the Roman Empire. You won't find heavily armed cargo ships there either.

It makes no sense realistically (because you simply divide between civilian cargo transports and military ships), and no sense for the fictional model of a Roman Empire in space.

Look to the airforce. Military transport planes. Do they have missiles and machine guns? No, they have a decoy system for heat seeking and radar missiles, but use ALL the available place they have for cargo transport.

It's ALWAYS the same principle. If you carry precious cargo, you carry precious cargo, because space is money. You don't build an oil tanker that wastes precious space for ammunition. Even a weapons transport won't be able to fight back.
The Roman Empire was not a spacefaring civilization with warp drive, photon torpedoes, disruptors, and artificial singularities. And the Romulan Empire is an alien species which just happens to be patterned after the former by names and ranking systems, but there the resemblance ends. So it's not a viable comparison.

It all comes down to anthropomorphizing an alien race based on your own beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, that justifies the existence of the Narada, because it's builders weren't thinking like human beings would think.
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