RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,067
Posts: 5,432,142
Members: 24,926
Currently online: 561
Newest member: wod_freak

TrekToday headlines

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Cracked’s New Sci-Fi Satire
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16

Beltran Introduces Shakespeare To Theater Group
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16

Burton To Be Honored at Facets Boo! Bash
By: T'Bonz on Oct 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 16 2010, 11:58 PM   #1
Garak007
Lieutenant
 
Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Ok I can only recall two times we actually seen manoeuvres in Star Trek. The manoeuvre what Wesley got busted for while he was academy and the Picard Manoeuvre.

We don't see any attack pattern or proper manoeuvres apart from those I can remember.

There has been numerous accessions when the captain says "attack pattern delta" or attack pattern this. We don't get to see it. It's quite unfortunate as we don't see how the enemy is out witted tactically

Can anyone else recall any more manoeuvres or attack patterns we acutally see?
Garak007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 12:03 AM   #2
Sibo191
Lieutenant
 
Sibo191's Avatar
 
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

I remember the Defiant doing manouvers in several episodes. Both before and during the war, and in the MU.

The fleet battle in first contact also showed ships preforming maneuvers, including the E-E.

As far as attack pattern "x" I always took that to be a firing pattern and not an actual maneuver.
Sibo191 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 12:18 AM   #3
Garak007
Lieutenant
 
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Sibo191 wrote: View Post
I remember the Defiant doing manouvers in several episodes. Both before and during the war, and in the MU.

The fleet battle in first contact also showed ships preforming maneuvers, including the E-E.

As far as attack pattern "x" I always took that to be a firing pattern and not an actual maneuver.
Concerning the E+E and the rest of the ships in the fleet all Picard said concentrate fire at this target and that is what they did. Before that the ships where just going around and around the cube or firing at it and backing off. We don't see an orcastrated maneuver but I did not think about attack patterns being firing patterns. Perhaps that makes some sence.
Garak007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 01:10 AM   #4
Green Shirt
Commodore
 
Green Shirt's Avatar
 
Location: 21133
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Lets see. A ship makes a turn and fires. Guess that qualifies as a manuever. Happens all the time.
__________________
Its not easy being green.
Green Shirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 01:49 AM   #5
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Fancy maneuvers are difficult to film. This was especially the case back in the day when physical models were used for the ships.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 01:59 AM   #6
Garak007
Lieutenant
 
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Fancy maneuvers are difficult to film. This was especially the case back in the day when physical models were used for the ships.
Ah you see my point
Garak007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 02:23 AM   #7
Elvira
Vice Admiral
 
Elvira's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Garak007 wrote: View Post
We don't see an orchestrated maneuver
There's a difference between Evasive Action (free formed) and Attack Pattern (carved in stone). What was seen during the attack on the Borg cube near Earth was more a series of attack runs, Picard's tactic of gathering the Fleet on a single side of the cube and firing upon it a narrow arc would be a example of a Fleet maneuver. Having the Fleet do something in a coordinated way.

Certainly the Fleet maneuvers we actual saw during the Dominion War were boarder line ridiculous, most of Captain Sisko's attack patterns had all the mystery and subtlety of a eighteenth century horse cavalry charge across open ground. There was never any dialog to suggest that there was more happening off screen.

.
Elvira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 02:34 AM   #8
Caliburn24
Commodore
 
Location: Gig Harbor, Washington
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Without a lot of exposition and thought given to the exact capabilities of the weapons, defenses and ships, tactics and maneuvers are essentially meaningless.

Trek has never had the desire(with maybe the partial exception of STII, the most thought out of Trek's ship battles) to really explain how things work and why one side is doing one thing and the other side is doing the other.

However, the one thing that could be shown, and is mostly in line with what we have seen of Trek technology is rotating the ship to spread enemy fire over a wider portion of your shields. Just a simple barrel roll to bring your dorsal or ventral shields into play.

But...I don't think we've seen even that happen.
Caliburn24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 04:08 AM   #9
M'rk, son of Mogh
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
However, the one thing that could be shown, and is mostly in line with what we have seen of Trek technology is rotating the ship to spread enemy fire over a wider portion of your shields. Just a simple barrel roll to bring your dorsal or ventral shields into play.

But...I don't think we've seen even that happen.
As far as I know, we've only seen this once.

And it was in "Nemesis" of all places!
M'rk, son of Mogh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 04:22 AM   #10
Elvira
Vice Admiral
 
Elvira's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

M'rk, son of Mogh wrote: View Post
And it was in "Nemesis" of all places!
For all the movies flaws, the combat shown during Nemesis wasn't too shabby.
Elvira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 08:18 AM   #11
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

We also see the Defiant do a seemingly senseless barrel roll when in close combat with the Lakota in "Paradise Lost".

This maneuver doesn't make the Lakota miss; indeed, the adversary ship scores a perfect series of hits from its multitude of emitters, as is typical for all Starfleet battles against uncloaked opponents. However, the maneuver might have two advantages: the damage distribution trick suggested above, and the fact that the Defiant has, at least in this episode, a dorsally mounted phaser somewhere next to the bridge, and can bring this weapon to bear by rolling during the close pass. But the latter advantage alone doesn't yet justify the rolling, because Worf could have chosen to fly in the desired orientation all the time. So the hit distribution idea sounds like the best interpretation.

The E-E also rolls in ST:INS, to deliver a blow against Rua'fo's command ship from her ventral phasers. Whether this has anything to do with hit distribution is anybody's guess; we learn little about how shields behave in the Briar Patch, and what role this strange environment plays in the need to reset shields after hits.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 12:24 PM   #12
Caliburn24
Commodore
 
Location: Gig Harbor, Washington
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

As far as ship mounted phasers and other beam weapons go, I've always had a number of nerdy technical questions.

1) Can you focus all of your lets call it "phaser power" through a single emitter? A single powerful phaser beam in essence.

If the answer is no...

2) Why are Starfleet ships not shown firing multiple phaser beams far more often(other than real world budgetary reasons)?

3) Why aren't Starfleet ships designed with a broadside style design philosophy that lets them focus the maximum number of phaser emitters at a single target? Other than the Defiant with its massive frontal firepower, all other Starships seem to have dispersed emitters that give them the ability to fire in any direction, but limited ability to focus those emitters on one target.
Caliburn24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 01:07 PM   #13
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
1) Can you focus all of your lets call it "phaser power" through a single emitter? A single powerful phaser beam in essence.
My interpretation is that every emitter is powered singularly, not through a distributer "phaser power" grid.

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
2) Why are Starfleet ships not shown firing multiple phaser beams far more often(other than real world budgetary reasons)?
In a battle between shielded vessels, precision of hits might me more useful than number of strikes, so the limiting factor could be computational power of the targeting system, not the power used by the phasers.

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
3) Why aren't Starfleet ships designed with a broadside style design philosophy that lets them focus the maximum number of phaser emitters at a single target? Other than the Defiant with its massive frontal firepower, all other Starships seem to have dispersed emitters that give them the ability to fire in any direction, but limited ability to focus those emitters on one target.
My idea is that Starfleet vessels are build with a defensive philosophy, and phasers are intended to give the ship a point-blank defense system for incoming missiles and torpedoes in addiction to their offensive role. Torpedo launchers, on the other hand, seem to be much more focused. Also, the maneuverability of Starfleet ships seems somehow lacking (hence the revolutionary role of the Defiant class), so spreading the attack arches of the phasers seems like a good idea, or you may finish the battle without even having locked your frontal-facing weapons on your enemy.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 01:49 PM   #14
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

1) Can you focus all of your lets call it "phaser power" through a single emitter? A single powerful phaser beam in essence.

If the answer is no...

2) Why are Starfleet ships not shown firing multiple phaser beams far more often(other than real world budgetary reasons)?

3) Why aren't Starfleet ships designed with a broadside style design philosophy that lets them focus the maximum number of phaser emitters at a single target?
I'd argue that the answer to 1) must be "yes" - not because the ships wouldn't be designed with "broadside" emitters, but because they clearly are designed that way (each saucer surface is full of little turrets in the Kirk-era ships) and still only one beam at a time is fired from this multitude of emitters that all point in the direction of the enemy.

There's only one instance in Starfleet history where two beams from different emitter locations converge on the same target: in "Sacrifice of Angels", where two beams from different parts of the saucer strip of a Galaxy hit the same Cardassian vessel. Apparently, hitting the enemy with two or more beams is virtually never better than hitting him with just a single beam.

And this is completely unrelated to targeting issues, as most targets don't maneuver out of the way at all, and those that do maneuver wildly are nevertheless hit with 100% accuracy. If two beams produced twice the hitting power (even when perhaps carrying a 30% accuracy penalty), Starfleet would always fire two beams, and typically six or ten from a Kirk-era saucertop or saucer bottom!

Nor is it a coverage issue: Galaxy skippers could always have hit targets with two beams, "Sacrifice of Angels" style, with their main saucer phaser strips, regardless of where the targets were located. Or with ten beams for that matter. If one part of the strip can hit the enemy, then all parts generally can. Or if one saucertop turret from Kirk era can hit the target, all six can.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2010, 02:22 PM   #15
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Have you noticed you don't see many manoeuvres in Star Trek!

Good points. My only doubt is that "flying in a straight line" and "maneuvering wildly" in the (supposed but never shown) fully 3-dimensional, quasi-relativist environment of Star Trek may not be as straightforward as in aerial or naval combat.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.