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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Did you like the 'Bashir was genetically modified' retcon?
Yes, I think it was a good plot and it worked 35 47.30%
It was an interesting storyline, but I didn't completely buy it 25 33.78%
No, it made no sense 11 14.86%
I'm not sure 3 4.05%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 9 2010, 08:23 AM   #31
RobertScorpio
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

Good point...I thought the episode, Bashir I presume, had a great message in it. Very soon, here in reality, parents are going to be able to tailor make their offspring...I think this episode was very topical and had a great message about how far parents will go to ensure the success of their children...

Rob
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Old May 9 2010, 04:37 PM   #32
Myasishchev
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

^Whereas the Augment arc from Enterprise is a tale about how they'll kill your ass, if you do.

Yeah, Montalban as Khan is amazing, but any third dimension there is entirely Montalban's doing. Other than Bashir they really went out of their way to portray the biologically engineered more inhuman than most of the aliens we deal with.
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Old May 9 2010, 07:34 PM   #33
flemm
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Yeah, Montalban as Khan is amazing, but any third dimension there is entirely Montalban's doing.
I watched Space Seed for the first time in a while the other day and was struck by a couple of things.

Montalban as Khan in the original episode is all kinds of awesome, and really his original performance is pretty far removed from the bluster of his reprisal of the role in TWOK. The original Khan has a sleek, cool efficiency about him. He comes across as magnetic and powerful.

The second thing I realized is that we are definitely going to see Khan in the Abrams' Trek sequel. This character, as originally conceived, has everything you could possibly want in a movie antagonist: he's charismatic, brilliant, physically strong, arrogant, honorable in a twisted sort of way. As Scotty and Kirk explain to Spock: we can admire and oppose him. There's no way Abrams and Co. are going to be able to pass up doing a revamped version of this character.

Back on topic, I find it a bit odd that Trek's genetically enhanced humans are either pathological or disturbed in some way (Bashir being the notable exception). It wouldn't surprise me if genetic tampering may end up having some drawbacks, but only drawbacks? I doubt it.
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Old May 9 2010, 08:22 PM   #34
Myasishchev
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

^Indeed. As I've said before, if they're so concerned about aggression, why not, you know, make them unaggressive? If you understand the human genome well enough to genetically engineer intelligence, of all things, which has no locus on any particular gene (as opposed to, say, red hair), you have enough understanding to dictate personality traits.

For one alternative, stop making Augments with Y chromosomes. Not to say that women can be neither ambitious nor violent, but the sociopathic aggression characteristic of Khan's and Soong's run of Augments is a lot less likely in a pure female population.

Heck, if you're that bad at it, you could just stop messing with genes that express personality and intellectual qualities altogether. I strongly doubt that right-side-of-the-bell-curve physical attributes are going to dictate egomaniacal supervillainy. They don't in the 50% of the current human population that has them already.
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Old May 10 2010, 01:55 AM   #35
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
In this Trek Today article, Alexander Siddig reveals just how much he hated the 'Bashir was genetically engineered' plot:

“…on Thursday the script arrived,” explained Siddig. “We started shooting on Friday. I was so shocked. You know you get the impression that maybe the producers sit down and talk about strategies and character arcs with actors but this thing came out of the blue and pissed me off so royally. It was a reaction to the fact that the character was genuinely unpopular in the early days. Because he was not fancy; I mean this is a time where 90210 was at the top of the charts in American TV and this guy was so not the hunk, he was the anti-hunk. “He was a man of science; he was like half good looking, rubbish at pulling girls. I mean it was all the wrong kind of archetypes. And so they kept trying to do things to make it happen. Eventually they did the Bond thing (Our Man Bashir) – they did the Bond thing before that actually. And that kicked it off. I have to say that I’m still pretty angry. Well, not angry…”
Siddig turned his anger to action. “I did it the only way that an actor can,” he said. “I completely destroyed the lines that they gave me regarding the situation. Every time something came up that was to do with being kind of Data-esque – I mean, I couldn’t get away from the fact – I thought I was being a Data, which is what they wanted to do, they wanted to switch the characters from all the shows, which they ended up doing with Voyager.
“Well, it was a bit cynical at the end of the day. But I just fluffed the lines; well I didn’t fluff them completely I literally pinned the lines on the back of someone’s shoulder once, reading them. I wasn’t bothered even to learn them. I just pinned them around the office as if they were lines needed for daily modification. And they got the message and dropped it kind of.”
And this is where the quotes originally come from: UGO interview with Alexander Siddig
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Old May 10 2010, 02:30 AM   #36
The Grim Ghost
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

I liked it. We got the Jack Pack (who I loved) and some nice character moments for Bashir out of it. I also liked seeing something of his parents.

Blowing his lines on purpose? Wow, I never noticed any difference in his performance. And I really liked Bashir, that isn't an insult. Sounds like he may be exaggerating a bit.
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Old May 10 2010, 05:44 AM   #37
RobertScorpio
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

If he 'blew' his lines in those episodes he sites, then he should have blown them all the time. Because I think they contain some of his best performances. Was he blowing his lines in that episode where his 'changeling' duplicate tries to blow up the wormhole? If not, then yikes, I'm not sure what to think because that episode was horrible...and Bashir was the main reason IMO

Rob
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Old May 10 2010, 09:33 AM   #38
Caliburn24
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

I liked what it did to Bashir as a character, it was more character development than many of the other characters got. But the execution was flawed, and especially the follow-through of the whole thing.

But overall I give it a "yes".
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Old May 10 2010, 02:21 PM   #39
RobertScorpio
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

Well, its just as I said earlier. Siddig is just going through the phase they all go through. Eventually he's going to come out and say "Actuallly, I loved those episodes.." and he will embrace it. Leonard took nearly 30 years to come around.

Rob
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Old May 10 2010, 02:38 PM   #40
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
My first reaction was "Wow, that is so unprofessional, my opinion of the man just dropped etc.," but then I realized the only reason I responded that way is because I disagree with his position, and I've lauded actors in the past (Nimoy, for example) who thought they knew their characters better than the writers, and who were proven right.
You know, having read the entire original UGO interview, Siddig does come off as a bit childish.

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
^Whereas the Augment arc from Enterprise is a tale about how they'll kill your ass, if you do.

Yeah, Montalban as Khan is amazing, but any third dimension there is entirely Montalban's doing. Other than Bashir they really went out of their way to portray the biologically engineered more inhuman than most of the aliens we deal with.
I agree, the TOS and ENT episodes were far too one-dimensional in their portrayal of the Augments. Though we might say that they don't necessarily portray the Augments as genetically destined to be "evil" - Khan's bunch on TOS consisted only of his followers, and ENT's Augments had no contact with other humans or any other people apart from their "father" Soong, and we could blame their upbringing for their ideas of superiority - those episodes still leave a bitter taste, as they don't show any Augments who aren't violent and bent on world domination (apart from the one who was "defective", i.e. the same as "normal" humans), and (in case of TOS) seem to imply that no single Augment survived the Eugenics Wars and went on to live a life on Earth (or at least they ignore the issue and leave people to make such an assumption), which lends itself to the racist conclusion that all Augments are "born (created) evil". Such a portrayal would be unacceptable for any other race, but since the Augments are "unnatural", this is supposed to be OK? But DS9 made a point that the Jem'Hadar - whose entire race is genetically engineered - are individuals with personalities and morality code, rather than mindless butchers, and we got Vortas minds of his own, too.

This aspect is really the reason why the Augment arc is one of my least favorite in season of ENT. I agree that DS9 did it much better than TOS and ENT, in a more complex way, dealing with some issues that the other shows just ignored.
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Old May 10 2010, 02:47 PM   #41
RobertScorpio
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

As with most things TREK, I seperate TOS from the other shows. It comes, really, from another time. ENT had no excuse to treat the subject as screwy as it did. DS9, as you said, did the best job of it in modern TREK era.

Rob
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Old May 10 2010, 03:05 PM   #42
RegFan
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

I think it was good for his character.
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Old May 10 2010, 03:56 PM   #43
Praxius
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

tkron wrote: View Post
I thought it was a good idea that flubbed in a few places, like Jack's crowd. The idea of the enlightened Federation not letting genetically altered people contribute just rubbed me wrong. I can see some Federation member-planets that maybe aren't so hard-nosed about genetic engineering protesting that one.
While I found the Jack crowd a tad on the annoying side, the episode and such was still entertaining to me personally and was still a pretty good episode. I think the thing I liked about it the most had to do with the point of Statistics and Analyses, no matter how much work someone puts into it, no matter how much of a genius someone thinks they are, are never 100% accurate and it is impossible to account and factor in every single probability.... thus anybody who believes in statistics to the point of almost religious attachment, are fools.

In regards to not allowing genetically modified people into Starfleet, I believed they addressed this principle of theirs in the episode..... when a child is modified against their will or without their direct knowledge of it by their parents, they are not responsible for what has happened, and thus should not be penalized for the crimes of their parents. Since his father decided to go to prison because of this situation, he was allowed into starfleet, and thus, technically any other modified human in a similar situation would be allowed to join starfleet too, so long as their parents face their punishments for their crimes.

I believe the rules towards Starfleet and Modified humans were mostly related towards individuals who seek modification on their own free will, as adults, ie: you join a group or some force, allow yourself to be modified to compete in that group, then quit and try and join Starfleet.... which they'd be turned down and possibly face charges.

At least that's how I see it.




ClayHefner wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty awesome, especially in retrospect.
Like when Bashir shot Garak in the holodeck in OMB, we can assume he knew exactly what he was doing and where he was going to hit him.
Or the whole thing with getting that one question in the exam wrong. Before, we had to beleve he failed the question because he was afraid of being the best, now it makes much more sense.
And the Darts thing works well, too. Even when he was not in the mood, he could always be "just good enough" to keep the game going, without Miles complainng he wasn't trying.

So yeah, it was excellent as it turned out imo.
Also, let's not forget near the beginning of the series where Bashir and O'Brien first played Springball..... Bashir bragged himself up (warned O'Brien) about his abilities and being one of the best in the Academy....... then pulled off some crazy jumps and flips, hit the ball, and the ball flew past O'Brien before he knew what was going on..... then continually beat O'Brien for a pile of more games before Bashir got someone in his medical team to call him out for an emergency..... before the Emergency was O'Brien having a heart attack.

And O'Brien was PO'd, lol.

It seemed after that first experience between them, Bashir seemed to tone himself down a bit with future games like Darts and such.
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Old May 10 2010, 04:02 PM   #44
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

Double Post
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Old May 11 2010, 03:25 AM   #45
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Re: Bashir's genetic modification: yes or no?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
I agree, the TOS and ENT episodes were far too one-dimensional in their portrayal of the Augments.
i want to see a good reason why genetic engineering is outlawed, but the annoying weirdos of ds9 don't deliver it. ds9 tried to portray the funny dimension, and the absurd, and failed.
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