RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,802
Posts: 5,471,605
Members: 25,038
Currently online: 479
Newest member: kriegaex

TrekToday headlines

Shatner Book Kickstarter
By: T'Bonz on Nov 20

Trek Original Series Slippers
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Hemsworth Is Sexiest Man Alive
By: T'Bonz on Nov 19

Trek Business Card Cases
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

February IDW Publishing Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Nov 17

Retro Review: The Siege of AR-558
By: Michelle on Nov 15

Trevco Full Bleed Uniform T-Shirts
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14

Wheaton Buys Wesley Crusher Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14

People’s Choice Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14

Quinto: Not Internally Homophobic
By: T'Bonz on Nov 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > TV & Media

TV & Media Non-Trek television, movies, books, music, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 27 2010, 10:31 PM   #76
jefferiestubes8
Commodore
 
Location: New York City
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

24thcenstfan wrote: View Post
a multi-generational cast (ala Dallas and Falcon Crest) for it to appeal to a wide audience/make money/get the ratings. <br />
<br />
Unfortunately, the days of those type of primetime shows being made (soaps in the examples above) are almost over IMO.
Perhaps you did not hear about the
Dallas TV series remake for 2011 on TNT?

November 16th, 2010
First Plot Details on ‘Dallas’ Remake Emerge

or the remakes of 90210 in 2008 aka "90210 Beverly Hills - Nouvelle génération" - France? and the 2009 revival of Melrose Place?
primetime soap operas have not gone away just yet.

While these are off topic they do show multigenerational casts.
jefferiestubes8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 28 2010, 07:13 AM   #77
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
 
Location: ANS Yamato, Sector 5, Sol System
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

[QUOTE=J.T.B.;4202736]
stj wrote: View Post
Turning a Quantrill's raider into a Western Robin Hood is a political statement in itself. The insistence that the South was all about small government or such drivel is the same kind of thing. Demanding that people have to forthrightly state they are racist seems so excessive as to border on the disingenuous.
Even so, that's a long way from supporting the earlier contentions that Westerns were doomed by their outmoded racial views.
No it isn't, and future movies/TV shows in this genre will have to start being cognizant of whatever racism that is shown or implied, because young people of color are watching, and they're not going to put up with what went before anymore.

[QUOTE=barnaclelapse;4207012]
stj wrote: View Post
I'm not quite sure that box office hits are representative of Westerns as a class. Certainly, since I said that since integration the classic Western is dead, citing post-integration Westerns (a mere handful compared to the torrent beforehand,) isn't even relevant. That said, Duel in the Sun is about "halfbreed" played by Jennifer Jones! Not seeing doesn't mean nothing's there.

Jesse James is done repeatedly, last time in American Outlaws, played by Colin Farrell. He has a black sidekick!
Turning Jesse James into a Western Robin Hood covers up his role as a Confederate guerrilla, who took part in massacres. Having a Southern rebel motivated by something other than racism is the same kind of falsification promoted by the NeoConfederate sympathizers who babble about economic oppression by Northern industrialists or dedication to states' rights.

In the classic Western there there are no significant numbers of African Americans or Chinese; the Indians are simply bloodthirsty marauders or noble savages doomed by the modern world or simply not part of the equation (none of which were true!); Manly Men heroically struggle with the lawless landscape, far removed from both the blessings and blights of civilization; noble settlers start anew in unpopulated territory. In various ways, this is a dream world where issues of race, from the annihilation of the American Indians to the nature of the Civil War, simply don't exist. After integration made race an issue, the mythology no longer bore conviction. Even on television, younger audiences would rather watch cop shows.
Wow. I'm not sure I agree with that at all.
Maybe you should do some reading around the 'Net for the perspective that stj and I have presented rather than dismiss it out of hand, because many people, white and nonwhite, believe it, and don't really care about pandering to what was done before in a Western.
Dusty Ayres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 29 2010, 12:58 AM   #78
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
J.T.B.'s Avatar
 
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
No it isn't, and future movies/TV shows in this genre will have to start being cognizant of whatever racism that is shown or implied, because young people of color are watching, and they're not going to put up with what went before anymore.
I'm not sure I follow the quoting above, but my post of five months ago was cited so I guess I'll respond to re-iterate what I said above: The Western was not "finished" by changing racial views, it went into decline because of changes in the market. The sheer number of Westerns on early TV made the Western feature film seem not so special, and TV became so saturated (30 weekly Westerns on TV in 1959!) that viewers became tired of them and moved on to other genres. Claiming that this shift was due to "integration" is a post hoc fallacy and is not supported by most film historians.

There were racial stereotypes and insensitivity in Westerns, yes, as there were in many other movies (and even cartoons) of those eras. The treatment of race in the Western was a reflection of racial views in the country at large, and as those views changed so did the Western. Several examples have been cited above, and I will add one more, The Ox-Bow Incident from 1943. A damning indictment of lynching, it features a black man as one of the moral centers of the picture and puts the most egregious heavy in a Confederate uniform.

Maybe you should do some reading around the 'Net for the perspective that stj and I have presented rather than dismiss it out of hand, because many people, white and nonwhite, believe it, and don't really care about pandering to what was done before in a Western.
I already posted a list of successful Westerns with little that could be considered racially objectionable. Perhaps you could cite some examples in specific movies and how they doomed the Western film. Dismissing all Westerns as racist and reactionary shows either an unfamiliarity with the genre or a superficiality of analysis.

--Justin
J.T.B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 29 2010, 03:50 AM   #79
stj
Rear Admiral
 
stj's Avatar
 
Location: the real world
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
[Here are the top 15 most commercially successful Westerns according to George Lucas's Blockbusting, Alex B. Block, ed.

1. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969)
2. Duel in the Sun (1947)
3. How the West Was Won (1963)
4. Dances with Wolves (1990)
5. Shane (1953)
6. The Outlaw (1943)
7. Unforgiven (1992)
8. Maverick (1994)
9. The Alamo (1960)
10. Jesse James (1939)
11. True Grit (1969)
12. The Covered Wagon (1923)
13. Red River (1948)
14. Little Big Man (1970)
15. Vera Cruz (1954)

I can find little "racist" content in that list. Numbers 3 and 12 have stereotypical Indian fighting, but even the silent Covered Wagon has scenes showing the Indians are fighting for their way of life. Numbers 4 and 14 are emphatically pro-Native American, and 7 and 8 have strongly positive black and Native American characters, respectively. The rest, race plays little or no part. As for Robin Hood stories, the 1939 Jesse James is indeed one example, but it is fictionalized and leaves James brothers' Civil War origins out completely. In the movie they are pushed into crime by corrupt land-grabbers....And the reason [Westerns] died out on TV was also simple: There were too many and people tired of them, and the new field of demographic research showed that younger viewers preferred sitcoms and detective shows.

--Justin
Since this has come back to life, let's consider in detail the list above. I believe integration rendered the racial mythology of the classic Western untenable, first in the movies, by the mid-Sixties more or less, then a decade or two later in television. #1, 4, 7, 8 & 14 shouldn't be classic Westerns by my lights, with #11 borderline. Only #8, Maverick, could be considered in the classic Western mold. If I remember correctly, it was widely deemed retro. #11, True Grit, is borderline in having a young female non-romantic lead, as well as its date.

As noted before, Jennifer Jones' "half breed" character in Duel in the Sun as I vaguely remember is very much about race from a perspective that finds the Other dangerous, but seeing no social or political implications worthy of portraying, even in passing, much less exploring. It may not be KKK-style racism but it is at the very least naive. But why should the bar be set so high that you practically have to dress the crew in sheets before it's objectionable?

Which is why part of the problem with the classic Western is what is not shown. My memories or knowledge of Shane, The Covered Wagon, The Outlaw, Red River, Jesse James and Vera Cruz is sketchier than I'd like. But those memories don't include an honest portrayal of American Indians, Blacks, Mexicans or Chinese either in numbers or as genuine human characters. They do not even show significant numbers of non-Anglo-Saxon Protestant immigrants, or even people from towns or cities!

And I must repeat, it makes a statement when movies pretend Jesse James was a defender of the little people against corruption. (It's not like the truth isn't interesting. As I recall, there was a Western about Quantrill, The Dark Command.) Similarly, Vera Cruz turning its ex-Confederate die hard running to Mexico into the hero (!) is making a statement. The gunfight at the OK corral involved a gang rustling Mexican cattle, a fact that was disappeared until the revisionist Tombstone was made. Lastly, the idea that The Alamo, with it "patriotic" view of the Mexicans and the war for their land, is free of racist implications demands reducing "race" to skin tone, ignoring culture.

In other words, a closer look shows that this list supports my view, instead of refuting it. But speaking generally, it is still a non-representative sample. In fact, one could surmise that this list would favor less generic, more artistically realized. It's reasonable to think things like The Three Mesquiteers are more representative of the genre.

The near total disappearance of classic Westerns from television is not a matter of fashion. Fashions come and go, but none of them disappear forever. Even Ted Mack's Amateur Hour and the Gong Show came back to us (in the form of American Idol.) The thing is that Westerns haven't come back. Practically every Western movie made recently is explicitly revisionist, barring blatant trash like American Guns or American Outlaw. As for "reputable" film historians rejecting any cause and effect relationship, the problem is that being "reputable" sometimes means refusing to admit uncomfortable truths, no matter how obvious.

PS Crying fallacy sounds all tough minded and cooly analytical and all that, but there is no question of a logical fallacy. The counter-argument is, basically, there is no "hoc," i.e., an outdated racial mythology that is the basis (or maybe raison d'etre) of the classic Western, in the first place. This is an empirical question. The failure to analyze the commercial hits list correctly does not inspire confidence in any conclusions by this poster.

The Ox-Bow Incident shows that a Western could be made that didn't accept the classic premises. As for that matter, did oddities like Johnny Guitar (guaranteed testosterone free,) or Jubal (Othello, except without any other races,) or The Violent Men (a Union veteran for hero!) The point is that when premises and attitudes like Ox-Bow Incident's were seen as the historically honest and morally sensitive kinds of Westerns, Hollywood pretty much stopped making Westerns! Not even for TV. And, by the way, in 1943, racial attitudes in the movies were influenced by a desire to distinguish the US from the Nazis, even at the expense of temporarily drumming up support for Communist values.

Not being able to distinguish between individual Western movies and the classic Western genre bespeaks a superficial analysis. There are only two things that distinguish the Western, the setting in the "West," and, in the classic Western, a set of attitudes about race, masculinity, the nature of civilization itself, a whole mythology. The changes in the market that permanently killed the classic Western were the destruction of the mythology. People just don't buy it anymore.
__________________
The people of this country need regime change here, not abroad.

Last edited by stj; November 29 2010 at 04:10 AM.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2010, 03:54 AM   #80
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
 
Location: ANS Yamato, Sector 5, Sol System
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

^Well put, stj. And as I said before, younger people of color aren't going to put up with what you talked about in your posts, and will be very critical of any future Western on the big or small screen, the same way they're bitchy about everything else Hollywood puts out.
Dusty Ayres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15 2011, 03:15 PM   #81
jefferiestubes8
Commodore
 
Location: New York City
Gunslinger in development

Well it looks like another show is in the works.
Hell on Wheels and now
Zabel is also currently developing the Western series Gunslinger with ABC.
August 15 2011,
http://www.deadline.com/2011/08/detr...-drama-project
confirming the order of a script for "Gunslinger" from ABC Studios and executive producer David Zabel, who last delivered "Detroit 1-8-7" for the network.

David Zabel is also a Trek veteran writing a VOY episode:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0951390/
Star Trek: Voyager (TV series)
Pathfinder (1999) (story / teleplay)
#610 Pathfinder

Westerns are a rare sight in broadcast development, though NBC considered one last year from writer Josh Brand and helmer Peter Horton but ultimately passed. The genre has gotten some heat on cable going back to HBO's critically acclaimed "Deadwood"and an upcoming AMC effort, "Hell on Wheels."
http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...rfriendly=true

same name
Gunslinger (2012)
Action | Thriller | Western
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1510753/
Director: Mennan Yapo
Writer: Jeff Strebinger

so probably the TV show would have a title change for 2012-2013 TV season if a pilot gets made in 2012.

I'm just happy to have another show in development...for a broadcast network!
jefferiestubes8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15 2011, 03:41 PM   #82
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Trilliam wrote: View Post
No, no, no, no, no, oh, please G*d, no!!

I can't stand "Westerns"....not after a childhood where it seemed like every Western ever made, was watched in our house. I swear that the dust under the telly, was from the desert and not regular house dust! I even used to twitch when we went to places like Australiana Village (restored cottages & streetscapes from early colonial days) and "Old Sydney Town" (recreation of the early days of Sydney). Dust, log cabins, horses, stocks....
I know, how awful that channels might want to make and other people might want to watch the sort of show you don't like. Obviously, they should only ever make shows you want to see. God forbid you should have to just watch something else.
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15 2011, 04:15 PM   #83
jefferiestubes8
Commodore
 
Location: New York City
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Obviously, they should only ever make shows you want to see. God forbid you should have to just watch something else.
Yes we all have our dislikes. I do not like Civil War related films nor Medieval period movies.
The genres of sword and sandals as well as sword and chainmail do not interest me.
I do like the ideas in Westerns and use of horses in the mid-to-late 1800s in the American West. Steam railroads add an element of technology to that period.
Since I'm under 40 I do like a modern take on things and not a black and white sweeping epic Western. I can totally appreciate Once Upon A Time in the West though.

The TV as a storytelling medium though allows for more fleshed out characters and longer story and character arcs over a series. Serialized storytelling has come of age in 30 years (since Hill St. Blues started it (not coming under the soap opera heading of the 1960s Peyton Place) with The Wonder Years, The West Wing, ER, NYPD Blue, The Sopranos, Alias, Heroes, Jericho, etc.
With a serialized story we get a lot better story for essentially a very long movie.
With modern storytelling and the ability to show violence on cable tv and broadcast TV with TV14 V ratings you can get a pretty good story involving fights, hangings, and gunplay in a Western.
A new Western would not duplicate an episode of Gunsmoke.
HBO's Deadwood, and to some extent FX's Justified and CBS' Jericho are modern-day westerns on television.
jefferiestubes8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 15 2011, 04:21 PM   #84
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Gunslinger? Sounds promising.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2011, 05:09 AM   #85
Yevetha
Commodore
 
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

There was a series produced by Spielberg that sort of looked like a western.

Any idea what i am talking about?
Yevetha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2011, 01:59 AM   #86
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

The miniseries, Into the West? I tried watching it - incredibly boring!

But the Western genre can encompass any number of story types. Hell on Wheels sounds like an interesting and unusual take on the genre. A show revolving around a "gunslinger" doesn't seem quite as fresh but there are no details on it yet. I'd like to see variations on the genre we haven't seen before - not so many gunslingers, cowboys and wagon trains.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2011, 06:51 PM   #87
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
So a western is only about Cowboys and Indians and everything else is a period piece? And the only people interested in stories in that period are only drawn to that racial conflict? I think your definitions are too narrow.
Agreed. Many of the classic screen westerns don't involve Indians at all: Shane, The Magnificent Seven, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The Cowboys, True Grit, Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid, etc.

Westerns can also be about "cowboy vs. cowboy," or "lawman versus outlaw," etc.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2011, 07:02 PM   #88
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Hell, the story of the Earps and Clantons at the O.K. corral may be one of the best known - and most often filmed - western stories and that has nothing to do with Indians.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2011, 09:46 PM   #89
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

TNT's doing a Western - Gateway.

Sounds fairly traditional:

Set in the town of the same name in Colorado in the 1880s, Gateway tells the story of three brothers who step in to save their town when their sheriff father is murdered, pitting them against a corrupt cattle baron determined to make the town his own.
A sanitized Deadwood? TNT is staking out a middle ground between broadcast and the saucier/more risk taking cable outlets.

Could be fun with the right casting. They need to get the likes of Robert Knepper and Adam Baldwin into this show, I don't particularly care in what roles.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 18 2011, 10:01 PM   #90
jefferiestubes8
Commodore
 
Location: New York City
Re: a new Western as a TV episodic series? discuss

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
]A sanitized Deadwood? TNT is staking out a middle ground between broadcast and the saucier/more risk taking cable outlets.
Yes sounds like a regular TV Western. We'll see how it develops but I hope it is shot in Western Canada instead of Southern California just for the visuals.
cattle baron? Well sounds like cowboys and horses to me.
I sure am glad Danny Cannon is directing the pilot he is pretty talented.
If it goes to series I think the gunplay will be more exciting here on TNT with probably a TV-14 rating than on a broadcast network.
At least on TNT it has a chance of lasting 13 episodes.
jefferiestubes8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:37 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.