RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,959
Posts: 5,391,372
Members: 24,722
Currently online: 467
Newest member: Jadakiss

TrekToday headlines

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Free Star Trek Trexels Game
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 4 2010, 10:38 PM   #61
Navaros
Commodore
 
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

DonIago wrote: View Post
I suspect that there will be people in the future who will refuse to use transporter technology, believing it kills them or steals their soul or what-not.

Of course, those people probably won't be allowed to serve in Starfleet, where willingness to be transported appears to be a requirement.
Those issues would never arise precisely because the idea presented in the OP/thread title is an erroneous one.

Everyone knows that transporters transport both body and soul-the entirety of one's existence.

That is why no one on the existing shows complains about the idea presented in the OP.

If the idea presented in the OP were correct, then no one would ever use transporters, SF or otherwise, and that would have been reflected in the shows that were already made.
Navaros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 01:30 AM   #62
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Navaros wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
For all intents and purposes, a person does technically die or is vaporized whenever their body is converted (or molecularly partially decoupled) into a compressed energy beam.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Heck, it's even been said onscreen more than once that a transporter is a matter/energy conversion device.
It certainly is never said on-screen that transporter people 'die,' as you are claiming.
They don't have to. Anytime someone's molecules are taken apart (or even partially decoupled), their body ceases to exist as it was before. It's being vaporized by any other name.
It seems like you and others are conflating real science with fictional science on the Trek shows and using that conflation as a reason to justify the 'death/new person' theory.
It's just calling a spade a spade.
However, one cannot legitimately conflate real science with fictional science.
But isn't that what you're trying to do right now?
And the show in no way supports the idea that a transported person dies and then a new person is created.
But transporters do not transport people physically intact from one place to another. People don't fly up and down a shaft of light whole like Superman. The show has--in every possible way--supported the idea that a person's body is broken down into particles one place (vaporized) and then reassembled somewhere else (rematerialized). It doesn't matter that they don't call it death on the show because that's indeed what it is technically. But our heroes likely don't even consider it dying themselves because of the process is likely painless, happens in the blink of an eye, and that the person who arrives at the other end of the process is still basically the same person who left in every way that matters.
What is presented on the show is that the same one person is transported, end of story.
Which was never my contention, end of story (you omitted the part of my initial post in which I said the difference was either neglible or zero).

However, I still submit that the process of having one's body vaporized at the start of the transporter process is still, well, being vaporized. And no matter what you call it, it is still ceasing to exist as you were before. What prevents that death from being permanant is stuff like the annular confinement beam, Heisenberg compensators, and a lot of other technobabble stuff that enables that person to come back at the end of the process almost as if nothing had happened.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 06:13 PM   #63
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
^ <Occam's razor>If it makes a "copy" of your consciousness, I'd say the resulting person is you. A very alive you.</Occam's razor>
Either I'm not explaining well, or you're not getting it.

How about from your own personal point of view BEFORE you step into the transporter?

The copy who steps out of the TX later may FEEL he's you, because he has copies of all your personal memories implanted. But he's not you.

You yourself - the you that existed BEFORE the copying and beaming - is no more. You yourself don't materialize at the other end, just a copy. You yourself, are dead. Some other person with a xerox COPY of your memories is carrying on where you used to be. But you're in heaven, looking down on your copy, screaming in anger at what just happened. You yourself will never experience life again, never sleep with your wife again, never laugh with your kids again - the copy will be doing that.

And then the copy of HIM after he beams again...
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 06:28 PM   #64
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

^Getting a little melodramatic, aren't we?

You're of course assuming that humans have souls and that the transporter can't move them as easily as it moves physical matter, for starters.

Also, lest we forget, almost every time people have transported anywhere it's been voluntary, which means that either they know what they're getting into and accept the risk, or it never even occurs to any of them, ever. If you're going to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger, you're not really in a position to be "screaming in anger" when you hit the afterlife.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 07:16 PM   #65
DevilEyes
Rear Admiral
 
DevilEyes's Avatar
 
Location: basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
View DevilEyes's Twitter Profile
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Forbin wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
^ <Occam's razor>If it makes a "copy" of your consciousness, I'd say the resulting person is you. A very alive you.</Occam's razor>
Either I'm not explaining well, or you're not getting it.

How about from your own personal point of view BEFORE you step into the transporter?

The copy who steps out of the TX later may FEEL he's you, because he has copies of all your personal memories implanted. But he's not you.

You yourself - the you that existed BEFORE the copying and beaming - is no more. You yourself don't materialize at the other end, just a copy. You yourself, are dead. Some other person with a xerox COPY of your memories is carrying on where you used to be. But you're in heaven, looking down on your copy, screaming in anger at what just happened. You yourself will never experience life again, never sleep with your wife again, never laugh with your kids again - the copy will be doing that.

And then the copy of HIM after he beams again...
Actually I am getting it, but I think you're wrong.

You yourself is still here, you step into the transporter, and you find yourself on the other side. You yourself, are very much alive. You go on experiencing life, sleeping with your wife/husband/whoever, laugh with your kids if you have them, do your job, play poker with your friends, etc. etc.

And this is the only thing that actually make sense.

For starters, if you died, I don't see how the transporter could make a "copy" of you that would still have your consciousness and memories. You're not a computer, and your consciousness is not a database. It would just transport a dead body.

Next, you don't even have any evidence or solid reason to think that a person dies just because their molecules took a few seconds to be reassembled. People have been clinically dead for much longer, and their consciousness was not destroyed. And if you believe in soul, as your post seems to suggest, why would your consciousness (soul) leave your body while it is being divided into molecules and put back again? Certainly, if a soul can survive a complete destruction of the body, it can also stick around for a few seconds? Not to mention that, in SciFi world, and specifically Trek, consciousness of some beings has been known to jump from body to body - so there's no apparent reason why a soul/consciousness would have to "go to heaven" instead of sticking around for a few seconds.

Third, and most importantly, whatever you think about the possible consequences of transporting in real life, there is absolutely nothing in the Trek franchise to suggest what you're suggesting. Which means that it doesn't happen - because Trek is FICTION, so there is no "truth" that you have just realized and that everybody in the Trek universe is unaware of.

Four, even in-universe, if someone came up with that theory, it would only look insane. It's extremely far-fetched that people could be dying all over the place, and that nobody has figured it out for centuries.
__________________
Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

my Buffy/Angel rewatch

Last edited by DevilEyes; May 5 2010 at 09:47 PM.
DevilEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 09:19 PM   #66
Biggshow
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Corona, CA
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Well, shoot, DevilEyes, I was going to make a lot of the same points you made but you got there first.

Forbin (loved your computer, BTW ), I think the thing that may be getting in the way of the conversation here is an insistance on your POV. You are entitled to that POV but please do not insist that the rest of us share it. We understand what you're saying, we just don't agree with it. In the world of ST, people do not die when they enter a transporter. In the real world, however, this does pose some very interesting socio-philosophical questions. Until someone actually invents a machine that is able to transport living things, though, I don't think we need to let these questions interfere with our enjoyment of a fictional device.
__________________
Be careful out there.
Biggshow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 09:43 PM   #67
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Hm. Well, according to Articles of the Federation some 24th century publications have postulated that transporters kill people. These publications generally had readership in the 5-digit range, tops.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 10:04 PM   #68
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Biggshow wrote: View Post
Well, shoot, DevilEyes, I was going to make a lot of the same points you made but you got there first.

Forbin (loved your computer, BTW ), I think the thing that may be getting in the way of the conversation here is an insistance on your POV. You are entitled to that POV but please do not insist that the rest of us share it. We understand what you're saying, we just don't agree with it. In the world of ST, people do not die when they enter a transporter. In the real world, however, this does pose some very interesting socio-philosophical questions. Until someone actually invents a machine that is able to transport living things, though, I don't think we need to let these questions interfere with our enjoyment of a fictional device.
And it will always remain only a philosophical question, because even if transporters are invented some day, nobody will ever be able to find out if it kills people and creates new ones or if the same people continue to exist.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 5 2010, 11:22 PM   #69
Sector 7
Rear Admiral
 
Sector 7's Avatar
 
Location: McCrory/Hitler's Republic of North Carolina
Send a message via AIM to Sector 7
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

DonIago wrote: View Post
Any chance that future posts will be less buried in semantics? Because, y'know, that would be nice...(looks hopeful)
Yes we can. Unfortunately, some cannot. Matthew 6:7 I think the scripture is appropriate because, as one poster mentioned, if you do not believe that each person has a unique soul it does not matter. If you do believe that each person has a unique soul, then there are two options which come to mind: the soul is destroyed during the transporter process; or the soul is either duplicated or sent through the transport process.
Perhaps the reason a couple opinions are so vocal is due to strong personal beliefs, rather than a need to be right (hopefully).

Dr. Leonard McCoy was a man of strong beliefs, which is why he had such an aversion to using transporters. I would probably side with him on the issue.
__________________
“When all Americans are treated as equal, no matter who they are or whom they love, we are all more free.” -Pres. Obama
"A great democracy does not make it harder to vote than to buy an assault weapon." -Pres. Clinton
Sector 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2010, 12:46 AM   #70
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

I think McCoy just didn't like being taken apart...which makes sense as a doctor and all. His beliefs never seemed to enter into it, that I can recall. Heck, Barclay was the same way.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2010, 01:36 AM   #71
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

We've seen the transport process from the POV of the person being transported (Barclay in "Realm of Fear") and it looked seamless to me. Also in ST II, characters can carry on a conversation while being transported. These seem to kill the idea of transportees being 'copies', IMHO.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2010, 01:51 AM   #72
xortex
Commodore
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

The simplest answer is the best. It's the same person trapped in some kind of stasis field. I don't even know what that means other than until it is invented it's only a future visionary device. It doesn't have to make sense and we don't have to know or explain how or why it should or could work. Right now it's just magic. We don't know what the future holds. That's what makes it the future and not the present. We don't know what we don't know. The future is full of unbelievable miracles that seem impossible or impractical today.
xortex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2010, 05:55 AM   #73
Luther Sloan
Captain
 
Luther Sloan's Avatar
 
Location: Section 31 Headquarters
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

I don't think people in the 24th Century would use the technology if they thought it would take away the original person. I mean, I can see them being naive in the 22nd Century. But 200 years later... they should definitely know the ins and outs of it. I mean, I am sure they had many philosophical debates over the transporter over that amount of time. And I am sure the theory that it is a "doppelganger machine" has been disproven.
Luther Sloan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2010, 06:48 AM   #74
billcosby
Commodore
 
billcosby's Avatar
 
Location: billcosby
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Forbin wrote: View Post

You yourself - the you that existed BEFORE the copying and beaming - is no more. You yourself don't materialize at the other end, just a copy. You yourself, are dead. Some other person with a xerox COPY of your memories is carrying on where you used to be. But you're in heaven, looking down on your copy, screaming in anger at what just happened. You yourself will never experience life again, never sleep with your wife again, never laugh with your kids again - the copy will be doing that.

And then the copy of HIM after he beams again...
I get it now.

There are multiple copies of you forming every time you use the transporter beam. Dozens and dozens of copies of the same souls arrive in the afterlife. All screaming in anger at the replacement copy which materialized on the transporter pad.


Actually, it sounds like a rejected script for Voyager!

I remember reading transporter theory in the TNG technical manual. My interpretation was that (at least in TNG) the beaming process from start to finish was entirely transitional and that the subject was in two places at once for the duration of the transport.

You may also find this article relevant:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Heisenberg_compensator
__________________
My 1st Edition TrekCCG virtual expansion: http://billcosbytrekccg.blogspot.com/


Last edited by billcosby; May 6 2010 at 07:18 AM.
billcosby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 6 2010, 01:09 PM   #75
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Biggshow wrote: View Post
Well, shoot, DevilEyes, I was going to make a lot of the same points you made but you got there first.

Forbin (loved your computer, BTW ), I think the thing that may be getting in the way of the conversation here is an insistance on your POV. You are entitled to that POV but please do not insist that the rest of us share it. We understand what you're saying, we just don't agree with it. In the world of ST, people do not die when they enter a transporter. In the real world, however, this does pose some very interesting socio-philosophical questions. Until someone actually invents a machine that is able to transport living things, though, I don't think we need to let these questions interfere with our enjoyment of a fictional device.
I'm in no way insisting, and in fact I don't even believe my own postulation. I was just suggesting another concept for the sake of the discussion and trying to explain it as clearly as I could. I'm with everyone else that, in-universe, the TX transmits your matter, personality and soul right down the beam.

If I got a little over-enthusiastic, I didn't mean anything by it.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:42 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.