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Old May 3 2010, 01:14 PM   #31
Forbin
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Yes, but from the beamee's own perspective (in the "destroyed" argument), he's just plain DEAD. The new person created at the other end may have continuity of consciousness, but it's no longer the original consciousness, it's a recreation. It's a whole new person.

So in this scenario, you're committing suicide when you beam. You cease to exist. Done. Kaput. Finito.
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Old May 3 2010, 01:23 PM   #32
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Forbin wrote: View Post
Yes, but from the beamee's own perspective (in the "destroyed" argument), he's just plain DEAD. The new person created at the other end may have continuity of consciousness, but it's no longer the original consciousness, it's a recreation. It's a whole new person.

So in this scenario, you're committing suicide when you beam. You cease to exist. Done. Kaput. Finito.
I think you've completely missed the meaning of the "continuity of consciousness".
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Old May 3 2010, 01:23 PM   #33
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

You risk the same every time you fall asleep, of course. Perhaps you'll wake up, perhaps you won't. When you do, you may tell yourself you are the same person who went asleep, but that's no consolation to the person who went asleep - he didn't possess this knowledge of continuing existence when his head hit the pillow. Yet the sane among us do go to sleep.

Intellectually, we can easily convince ourselves that life goes on despite sleep. We learn that through experience, Intellectually, then, we can do the same with kill-copy transporting. The only question is, shall we? And the answer is likely to be, it's too damn convenient, so we will.

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Old May 3 2010, 01:41 PM   #34
JarodRussell
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

The thing is that when you fall asleep, your brain isn't dematerialized. When you sleep, you do have a continuity of consciousness. Your dream experiences are just not saved in your memory (most of the time). Your brain continues to controll ALL your body functions, it never stops. That you can't remember any of it doesn't change anything.


What you guys talk about: cell division, sleeping, brain damage... this is not comparable to beaming in any way. Beaming means that your entire body, including your brain, is decomposed completely and reassembled thousands of kilometers away.

Brain damage doesn't affect your conciousness at all. Yes, you are disabled after it on a certain level, but you still exist. There is no break in continuity.
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Old May 3 2010, 03:27 PM   #35
C.E. Evans
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think it depends on how you want to look at it. For all intents and purposes, a person does technically die or is vaporized whenever their body is converted (or molecularly partially decoupled) into a compressed energy beam. But the person that emerges at the end of the process has the exact same DNA as the person who was at the start of it. There isn't a duplication or cloning of the original but a deconstruction and reconstruction of the original. In such instances, the difference between the person who left and the person who arrived is negligible if not zero, IMO.

The only time a transporter has made genuine clones have been due to very rare malfunctions, like the ones that made duplicates of Kirk and Riker.
They were not clones.
It had absolutely nothing to do with cloning. They were same people.
Semantics. What is a clone but an exact duplicate of another person from the same genetic material?
Well, in Kirk's case, they were both versions of Kirk and neither was the same as the original Kirk, but that plot never really made any sense.
In the end, however, there were two Kirks created from one Kirk. By any other name, that's cloning.
Riker, however, was simply duplicated as exact same person, with same personality and memories...
In other words, a clone of the original.
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Old May 3 2010, 03:37 PM   #36
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think it depends on how you want to look at it. For all intents and purposes, a person does technically die or is vaporized whenever their body is converted (or molecularly partially decoupled) into a compressed energy beam. But the person that emerges at the end of the process has the exact same DNA as the person who was at the start of it. There isn't a duplication or cloning of the original but a deconstruction and reconstruction of the original. In such instances, the difference between the person who left and the person who arrived is negligible if not zero, IMO.

The only time a transporter has made genuine clones have been due to very rare malfunctions, like the ones that made duplicates of Kirk and Riker.
They were not clones.
It had absolutely nothing to do with cloning. They were same people.
Semantics. What is a clone but an exact duplicate of another person from the same genetic material?
Well, in Kirk's case, they were both versions of Kirk and neither was the same as the original Kirk, but that plot never really made any sense.
In the end, however, there were two Kirks created from one Kirk. By any other name, that's cloning.
Riker, however, was simply duplicated as exact same person, with same personality and memories...
In other words, a clone of the original.
In other words, you have no idea what a clone is.

Next you'll be saying that identical twins are people with the same personality and memories. They are genetically identical as well.
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Old May 3 2010, 03:43 PM   #37
JarodRussell
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I think it depends on how you want to look at it. For all intents and purposes, a person does technically die or is vaporized whenever their body is converted (or molecularly partially decoupled) into a compressed energy beam. But the person that emerges at the end of the process has the exact same DNA as the person who was at the start of it. There isn't a duplication or cloning of the original but a deconstruction and reconstruction of the original. In such instances, the difference between the person who left and the person who arrived is negligible if not zero, IMO.

The only time a transporter has made genuine clones have been due to very rare malfunctions, like the ones that made duplicates of Kirk and Riker.
They were not clones.
It had absolutely nothing to do with cloning. They were same people.
Semantics. What is a clone but an exact duplicate of another person from the same genetic material?
Well, in Kirk's case, they were both versions of Kirk and neither was the same as the original Kirk, but that plot never really made any sense.
In the end, however, there were two Kirks created from one Kirk. By any other name, that's cloning.
Riker, however, was simply duplicated as exact same person, with same personality and memories...
In other words, a clone of the original.
No, an exact duplicate is an exact duplicate on an atomic or even subatomic level. A clone is not. A clone doesn't even have the same amount of cells. I doubt that a clone even has the same fingerprints.
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Old May 3 2010, 03:49 PM   #38
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Timo wrote: View Post
You risk the same every time you fall asleep, of course.
Or when you compute a math problem.

Abel 1: 2 + 2 = ?
Abel 2: 2 + 2 = 4

To Abel 2, information has been added, which requires a physical alteration of his brain--hence Abel 2 is not the same person he was before he knew the answer.

Those who fear transportation, should logically fear an idle thought or mere passage of moments.
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Old May 3 2010, 04:12 PM   #39
JarodRussell
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
You risk the same every time you fall asleep, of course.
Or when you compute a math problem.

Abel 1: 2 + 2 = ?
Abel 2: 2 + 2 = 4

To Abel 2, information has been added, which requires a physical alteration of his brain--hence Abel 2 is not the same person he was before he knew the answer.
No, he switched to a different states, but he's still the same instance.
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Old May 3 2010, 04:41 PM   #40
C.E. Evans
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
They were not clones.
It had absolutely nothing to do with cloning. They were same people.
Semantics. What is a clone but an exact duplicate of another person from the same genetic material?
In the end, however, there were two Kirks created from one Kirk. By any other name, that's cloning.
Riker, however, was simply duplicated as exact same person, with same personality and memories...
In other words, a clone of the original.
In other words, you have no idea what a clone is.
Obviously, you don't.
Next you'll be saying that identical twins are people with the same personality and memories.
Actually, I won't because they don't have the same personality and memories.
They are genetically identical as well.
Which does make them clones, albeit from nature. But rather than call them clones, we call them identical twins, or triplets, etc.
JarodRussel wrote:
No, an exact duplicate is an exact duplicate on an atomic or even subatomic level. A clone is not.
Actually, some cloning does involve an exact duplication on an atomic or even subatomic level, particularly in the field of molecular cloning.
A clone doesn't even have the same amount of cells.
It depends on the cloning method, of which there are many. In embryo cloning, you do start off with cloned embryos that do have the same amount of cells.
I doubt that a clone even has the same fingerprints.
But they can have the same face, body type, and even hair color.

But I think you and DevilEyes are both taking my usage of the word "cloning" earlier a bit too literally since we're still talking about the creation of an identical-looking person.
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Old May 3 2010, 04:58 PM   #41
JarodRussell
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But I think you and DevilEyes are both taking my usage of the word "cloning" earlier a bit too literally since we're still talking about the creation of an identical-looking person.
Yes, simply because "cloning" is the wrong word for it.

It's like saying "running" when you mean "flying".

And we are not - at least I'm not - talking about the creation of an identical looking person, but about the creation of an identical person.
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Old May 3 2010, 05:04 PM   #42
DevilEyes
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Semantics. What is a clone but an exact duplicate of another person from the same genetic material?
In the end, however, there were two Kirks created from one Kirk. By any other name, that's cloning.
In other words, a clone of the original.
In other words, you have no idea what a clone is.
Obviously, you don't.

Actually, I won't because they don't have the same personality and memories.
Neither do the clones.

In other words, you really have no idea what a clone is.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I doubt that a clone even has the same fingerprints.
But they can have the same face, body type, and even hair color.
Just as identical twins do.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But I think you and DevilEyes are both taking my usage of the word "cloning" earlier a bit too literally since we're still talking about the creation of an identical-looking person.
We are using it to mean what it actually means. If you mean something else by it, don't use the wrong word for it.

Cloning is a type of asexual reproduction - the process of artificially creating another individual with the same DNA structure (as opposed to the conception of identical twins, which happens naturally). The other individual definitely does not have the same memories or personality or the continuity of consciousness and is not the same person. They may not even be physically identical to begin with, due to possible errors in the cloning process.
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Old May 3 2010, 05:21 PM   #43
C.E. Evans
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But I think you and DevilEyes are both taking my usage of the word "cloning" earlier a bit too literally since we're still talking about the creation of an identical-looking person.
Yes, simply because "cloning" is the wrong word for it.
I wouldn't call it the "wrong word"--at worst, perhaps a colloquialism for the reproduction of an identical person.
=original dude =reproduced dude
It's like saying "running" when you mean "flying".
Funny you should say that. I have used the word "flying" in reference to some people running though: "He flew right outta here"

And we are not - at least I'm not - talking about the creation of an identical looking person, but about the creation of an identical person.
I think the majority of people do think of clones more as identical looking persons rather than being 100% identicial to the subatomic level, although there are different types of cloning that fit both categories.
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Old May 3 2010, 05:42 PM   #44
C.E. Evans
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
In other words, you have no idea what a clone is.
Obviously, you don't.

Actually, I won't because they don't have the same personality and memories.
Neither do the clones.
Then why did you bring it up? I know I never said anything about clones or twins having the same personality and memories. You brought that up, not me.
In other words, you really have no idea what a clone is.
In other words, you really know you've barked up the wrong tree and so you want to say over and over again I don't know what a clone is to save face.

In its simplest definition, a clone is simply an identical person or object. Sure, you can go on and write a ten-page essay on clones, but in the end it means a copy, and that's the definition that I used.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But they can have the same face, body type, and even hair color.
Just as identical twins do.
Now I know you're arguing just for the sake of arguing...
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But I think you and DevilEyes are both taking my usage of the word "cloning" earlier a bit too literally since we're still talking about the creation of an identical-looking person.
We are using it to mean what it actually means. If you mean something else by it, don't use the wrong word for it.
It wasn't the wrong word if it meant making a copy from an original.

Anything else is just being nitpicky over semantics.
(original) (cloned)
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Old May 3 2010, 05:49 PM   #45
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Actually no. The transporter techology in Star Trek doesn't destroy the original. You are the same person after transport as you were before transport. Now whether that is actually possible in the real world is very ifffy.

The statements below are from a website(I can't remember where, I'll try to find it) that seemed to have a good grasp on this.

________________________________________________


"68 "How does the transporter work?" (Transporters - Star Trek)

While there is no absolute canonical answer, we can piece one together
from various clues, that fits nearly everything seen on-screen, and in
the TNG Tech Manual.

We have some evidence of the inner workings of transporters, but not
much. They employ Heisenberg compensators, pattern buffers, phase
transition coils, Biofilters, matter streams, confinement beams, and
matter-energy converters, and phased matter. As for what they do, we
know that you are conscious during transport (Star Trek II: The Wrath
of Khan, "Realm of Fear" [TNG]), but can also be held in stasis ("Day
of the Dove" [TOS], "Relics" [TNG]). Further, while in transport, you
appear whole to yourself.

I hypothesize that the Annular Confinement Beam first locks onto, then
disassembles the subject into phased matter, via the phase transition
coils, causing it to take on a very energy-like state somewhat akin to
plasma, called phased matter. The matter stream is then fed into the
pattern buffer, piped through wave-guide conduits to one of the beam
emitters on the hull of the starship, and then relayed to a point on
the ground where the ACB reconstructs the subject."
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