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Old May 14 2010, 07:08 PM   #151
Pauln6
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Luther Sloan wrote: View Post
The memories, heart, and soul of a person continues on in a person after transport.

Just as people die and come back from the dead. So do people in transporters.

If one atom is off. Your not coming back.
So the transporter cannot add anything then what it is given. It cannot leave anything out either.

So if the transporter transports every atom of you identically as it states.... and you are indeed identical to the original after transport... then you are just as much the original person who stepped onto the transporter pad and not a copy.

A copy usually suggests that it is something that is of lesser quality or a close imitation of the original. The person who ends up re-materializing on the other side is just as identical to the person who de-materialized.

That's not a copy.
The memories heart and soul are not transported though. The heart is broken down to energy and the memories are stored in some kind of computerised format. Further, although the person is ordinarily reconstructed from the energy that made them up orignally, this doesn't have to be the case. The transporter can reconstruct a person from any energy it has to hand - it just isn't designed to do that as standard.

Far more than a molecule can be out too. Kirk's DNA was royally screwed (so his molecules were not the same) and while this was actually killing him slowly, he lived for some time before it became essential to go back and recombine the pattern.

Interestingly, I'm not sure how that worked. I'm not sure how they saved Sulu in the New Voyages story off the top of my head. They may have used the scan from his last physical? In any event, when he came back, his memories were re-set to the last time that scan was taken. This may be fanwank but it fits with the notion that the transporter is just spouting out a copy based on the information it has to hand.
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Old May 14 2010, 07:10 PM   #152
Pauln6
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

I think the restrictions on producing duplicates could be legal as much as anything else.
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Old May 14 2010, 07:10 PM   #153
ProtoAvatar
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Luther Sloan wrote: View Post
ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
O'Brien's or the transporter inventor's technobabble is inconsistant with what WE KNOW the transporter can do - copy a human being.
No. Every scene within Star Trek needs to be considered and not ignored. You are twisting around what the series tells us about transporters. Pure and simple.

Give me some evidence that shows me different.
So far I have cited numerous examples within the series. So far your theories are just that. Theories. They are not based on anything that is actually within the show itself.
Proof? Already done:

"Yes - in order to copy a human being, one needs to have all information that describes this person (down to the quantum level, apparently) and one needs to have a huge amount of energy to 'build' the copy from scratch.

In 'Second chances' the transporter did exactly that. Riker1 AND Riker2.
Riker1 and Riker2 may be identical, physically and mentally - but they're different persons - twins, if you will. This becomes evident when you consider that one is on the Enterprise and one in a cardassian prison. This becomes evident when you put them in the same room and see that they're two distinct persons, not one person.

And, given the incredible precision work and huge energies needed to copy a human, a random phenomenon can't explain the EXACT copying of a person satisfactorily.
A random phenomenon would result in two puddles of organic goo that were once Riker."
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Old May 14 2010, 07:46 PM   #154
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

So, a person who's transported is reconstructed from a template taken at the moment of dematerialisation, using the energy derived from his original mass.

If that template is saved in the computer's memory, what's to stop anyone from using energy from the warp core to build another fully functioning person?

That's essentially how replicators are said to work, isn't it?
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Old May 14 2010, 07:56 PM   #155
Luther Sloan
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
The memories heart and soul are not transported though. The heart is broken down to energy and the memories are stored in some kind of computerised format.
Pauln6:

Let's see. Every character I have ran into within the show had retained their memories after transporting many times. Also, they didn't seem to be any different than when they first went through either. Also, characters have went thru the transporters and have traveled to their spiritual places (i.e. Sisko) after transport.

I mean, the wormhole aliens didn't say to Sisko... "Ummm where are the other Siskos at?"

No. The wormhole aliens treated Sisko as the one and only being.

Your theory just doesn't hold water man. Not in light of the series anyways.

Further, although the person is ordinarily reconstructed from the energy that made them up orignally, this doesn't have to be the case. The transporter can reconstruct a person from any energy it has to hand - it just isn't designed to do that as standard.
No. Each atom has to be replicated identically in it's right place. Otherwise there is going to be serious problems. And there was no mention that the transporter had ever added it's own data to a person to compensate for a person's pattern. You either have the whole person or you don't.

Far more than a molecule can be out too. Kirk's DNA was royally screwed (so his molecules were not the same) and while this was actually killing him slowly, he lived for some time before it became essential to go back and recombine the pattern.
Right. This is true. But that was a rare and special case. Normally, you end up dying if the transporter doesn't get your atoms in the right place. Thus why Kirk was slowly dying.

Interestingly, I'm not sure how that worked. I'm not sure how they saved Sulu in the New Voyages story off the top of my head. They may have used the scan from his last physical? In any event, when he came back, his memories were re-set to the last time that scan was taken. This may be fanwank but it fits with the notion that the transporter is just spouting out a copy based on the information it has to hand.
The transporter in the normal Star Trek universe doesn't operate that way. Patterns normally degrade in the memory buffer if it is not transported after a certain point of time. Only Scotty was able to rig a system to keep himself sustained inside the memory buffer once. But that was because he was able to do something special to it.

However, let's hypoethicalty say that something like that did happen. The transporter is still re-materializing the exact replica of whatever exact DNA or molecules it was given. If it was a copy it would create something close to whatever DNA or molecules it scanned. However, seeing the transporter creates an indistinguishable replica of the original person or thing that was transported during transport... it is still the original because it hasn't been changed.

I mean, one could say that you are not the same person in 10 years from now because you age physically, mentally, and have shed and re-grown numerous skin cells.

In fact, you could even die, and come back from the dead. You could even lose your short term memory. However, that doesn't make you a copy of what you used to be though. You are still the same person.

Although people will argue that you are not the same person anymore because you have changed so much over the years.


ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Proof? Already done:

"Yes - in order to copy a human being, one needs to have all information that describes this person (down to the quantum level, apparently) and one needs to have a huge amount of energy to 'build' the copy from scratch.

In 'Second chances' the transporter did exactly that.
Proto Avatar:

Twisting the meaning of what happened within ONE episode and pointing to ONE occurrence when you ignore everything else is not evidence.

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Old May 14 2010, 09:57 PM   #156
Luther Sloan
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Oh, and again, just to be clear: a copy is something that is not the original anymore. Like a song on a CD: the song is now a copy of the tune played in real time. The only way to hear that first original song that was being played for the first time is to be there when it originally happened (when it was being recorded).

Seeing the person who ends up on the other side of the transporter is indistinguishable (mentally and physically) from the person who went into into it from the start: They are essentially identical and not a copy.

Copies (like with clones) usually have a loss of quality or some type of noticeable degradation of some kind to set it apart from the original. That is not the case when it comes to the transporters. Otherwise the doctors of the 24th Century would have picked up on this important piece of information and limit how much a person could transport.

Now, my side of the argument is just my opinion of course. So please don't take it personally guys. I am just reporting my experience of how the transporter works in light of all of the information given to me by all of the series and not within just one episode.
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Old May 14 2010, 10:51 PM   #157
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Just a couple of observations-

1) I don't think you're using "copy" by the standard definition.

2) Based on the above, I'd say that, using your terminology, in Second Chances two originals of Will Riker were created. Or whatever you'd use to avoid the term "copy".
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Old May 14 2010, 11:00 PM   #158
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

[QUOTE=Myasishchev;4041520]
ReadyAndWilling wrote: View Post
The real question is how they manage to keep it from hurting. It obviously ain't instantaneous, and being torn apart atom by atom... well, ask a man who's been set on fire how he feels.
Indeed a good question. I would think that would have something to do with them having to stand still. But since Enterprise decided to completely get rid of that theory with Archer's "Running Transport" scene, we can't really say anymore.

We know that in TOS, TNG and maybe some Voyager, they had to stand completely still for the effects people. And you could always hear an engineer or Transporter operator saying "Stand still" right before the transport.

I'm not sure anymore, but it would seem that, to make the Transport as painless and tolerable as possible, the transportee would have to stand completely still.
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Old May 14 2010, 11:04 PM   #159
Pauln6
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Mytran wrote: View Post
So, a person who's transported is reconstructed from a template taken at the moment of dematerialisation, using the energy derived from his original mass.

If that template is saved in the computer's memory, what's to stop anyone from using energy from the warp core to build another fully functioning person?

That's essentially how replicators are said to work, isn't it?
Yes and no. It appears that because molecules are not static e.g. electrons move, blood moves, brain neurons fire etc, the only way to rebuild a live person is using Heisenberg Compensators from a very recent pattern. I think this is why a second copy can't ordinarily be produced - the system cannot generate enough energy through a single confinement beam unless some outside source buggers this up. Replicators produce only inanimate matter so they don't have this problem.

Scotty's jury-rig was a rare exception preventing a pattern from degrading - it's not something that would be possible in the normal running of the ship and we should probably forget it.

SPOILERS: In the New Voyages story (World and Enough Time I or something - great story btw) Sulu was out of phase with time and lived for years down on a planet before being beamed back up as a middle-aged man. I cannot recall exactly how they did it but they used an earlier scan and integrated it with the transporter to edit him back into current space time. Because the earlier pattern's brain did not contain his recent memories, he 'forgot' the events that happened down on the planet i.e. it was an earlier copy of Sulu that was re-materilaised.

This concurs with how I understand the transporter to work apart from the rapid degradation in the buffer. I can't recall exactly how they managed to overscome that problem or edit the current template to return to its earlier state but according to the writers of that particular story, it was a possibility.
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Old May 14 2010, 11:15 PM   #160
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Luther Sloan wrote: View Post
Let's see. Every character I have ran into within the show had retained their memories after transporting many times. Also, they didn't seem to be any different than when they first went through either. Also, characters have went thru the transporters and have traveled to their spiritual places (i.e. Sisko) after transport.

I mean, the wormhole aliens didn't say to Sisko... "Ummm where are the other Siskos at?"

Each atom has to be replicated identically in it's right place. Otherwise there is going to be serious problems. And there was no mention that the transporter had ever added it's own data to a person to compensate for a person's pattern. You either have the whole person or you don't.

The transporter in the normal Star Trek universe doesn't operate that way. Patterns normally degrade in the memory buffer if it is not transported after a certain point of time. Only Scotty was able to rig a system to keep himself sustained inside the memory buffer once. But that was because he was able to do something special to it.

However, let's hypoethicalty say that something like that did happen. The transporter is still re-materializing the exact replica of whatever exact DNA or molecules it was given. If it was a copy it would create something close to whatever DNA or molecules it scanned. However, seeing the transporter creates an indistinguishable replica of the original person or thing that was transported during transport... it is still the original because it hasn't been changed.

The wormhole aliens existed outside linear time and at any one point in time there was only one Sisko.

Up to a point I agree with what you are saying. For all intents and purposes they are the same person in the same way that regenerated Spock was the same person. However, the reality is that they just APPEAR to be the same person because they have been reconstructed with the same DNA and the same memories. Technically, they are still copies.

If the transporter opened up a subspace corridor that they could step through, it would be the same person. However, their matter is destroyed and converted to energy. A living carbon life form cannot survive that!

The buffer degradation is a problem and I can't remember how New Voyages (now Phase II) overcame it. They are pretty hot on this sort of thing though - I'm sure they came up with something (like super-imposing his most recent medical scan into the transporter and letting the system integrate the old scan with the live pattern in the buffer). One assumes this must be a dangerous procedure that you would only attempt as a last resort to avoid it becoming an easy-fix fountain of youth.
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Old May 15 2010, 12:04 AM   #161
Luther Sloan
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
The wormhole aliens existed outside linear time and at any one point in time there was only one Sisko.
Up to a point I agree with what you are saying. For all intents and purposes they are the same person in the same way that regenerated Spock was the same person. However, the reality is that they just APPEAR to be the same person because they have been reconstructed with the same DNA and the same memories. Technically, they are still copies.
Pauln6:

If the original Sisko died multiple times because of his constant use of the transporter and had been replaced with similar copies, then...

1. Why hasn't he or any other Starfleet officers discover any truth behind any physical or mental differences between the before and after versions of people during transport?

2. Why didn't the Wormhole Aliens look at Sisko as an impostor when he used the transporter so many times?

3. Why did the Wormhole Aliens decide to take him after he died in the Fire Caves and not when he died in the transporter for the first time (while he was replaced by a duplicate)?

In fact, in Sacrifice of Angels: The prophets had stopped him from ending his life when he decided to go up against a fleet of Dominion ships that were coming thru the wormhole. Why did they stop him then and not during any supposed transporter deaths?

I mean, seriously, if the transporter really was a doppelganger maker: would the Prophets be all that happy at the idea of their Emissary being killed and replaced by copies of himself over and over again?

If the transporter opened up a subspace corridor that they could step through, it would be the same person. However, their matter is destroyed and converted to energy. A living carbon life form cannot survive that!
That is why it is science fiction. There are many things within Star Trek that don't make sense and or will never happen (obviously). The transporter bends the normal rules of science as we know it and it de-materializes living and non living matter into energy for transport and then re-materializes it magically. It is a conversion of matter to energy and then back again. Just because it doesn't seem possible to you or me by normal science we use today, doesn't mean that is not how the device actually works within the show. Also, like I said before, you can die and you can still come back and be the same person, too. Death is not the defining factor of something being different or being a copy. However, death in the transporter could happen in .00000003rd of a second for all we know. It could be so fast and so instantaneous that it really wouldn't significantly be a definitive moment that would be a real death upon a person's life because it happens so quickly. However, there is evidence within Star Trek that your mind is perfectly preserved and living on as transporter energy during the transporter process within that fraction of a second (or seconds). Remember the DS9 episode titled "Our Man Bashir" where the memories of some of the command crew had been integrated into Doctor Bashir's spy program? How does the transporter store memories or the minds of people if they are no longer flesh and blood anymore?

Well, the answer is simple, the episode tells us very clearly that the mind lives on during the energy portion part of the transporter process. Any speculation beyond that is just that. Pure speculation with no real basis in fact within the official Star Trek universe.

In addition: I just watched the TNG episode "Second Chances" and it clearly tells us that Riker #2 is actually identical to Riker #1. It was further said that both Rikers are real and not some type of second rate copy or clone.

If your interested: Here are the scenes from the episode that confirm this...

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/67813

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/67815


Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Our_Man_Bashir_(episode)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Second_Chances

Last edited by Luther Sloan; May 15 2010 at 01:27 AM.
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Old May 15 2010, 12:53 AM   #162
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But transporters do not transport people physically intact from one place to another.
But transporters DO transport you physically intact from one place to another. Hence why Barclay and others could grab ahold of people in the matter stream and pull them out, intact:

1. the people that were pulled out themselves, although distorted as Barclay's mind tried to comprehend it, remained intact and could reach out desperately with their hands to the other people.

2. Barclay and co. themselves remained intact and conscious and could move about during the transportation process.

Transporters do not transform you into energy destroying your body; what they do, is transform you into a quantum foam, where you are your body intact, and formless energy at the same time. The energy can be manipulated and sent wherever without the limitations matter has, but matter remains secretly intact and gets reconstituted where the energy is sent to.
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Old May 15 2010, 01:09 AM   #163
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

No no no- the transporter does what a phaser does- it severs atomic bonds, but in the process, it "takes a quantum picture" of the pattern, then rebuilds said pattern with new matter.
The souls of the transportees then snap to the new bodies like a rubber band (soul energy is unquantifiable and ubiquitous).
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Old May 15 2010, 01:23 AM   #164
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

OR. Maybe I'm wrong.

Beam me up, 3D Master!
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Old May 15 2010, 01:43 AM   #165
Luther Sloan
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Re: When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

I don't know where folks get the idea that the transporter uses new matter to re-materialize a person. This simply is not true. Nowhere within any of the episodes or films even suggests this. The transporter takes apart your body and converts it into energy where your mind and self image of your self could continue on in an energy state where your body eventually gets put back together or phased back to it's normal physical form.

In fact, Dr Crusher confirms that Riker #1 is identical to Riker #2. If transporter travelers where a copy of the previous version, then it would been said within the series at some point.


Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Our_Man_Bashir_(episode)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Realm_of_Fear
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Second_Chances
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