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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 11 2012, 08:08 AM   #271
Silvercrest
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
OH I love this this continuity error.

It's so fucking hilarious!

"Oh my. No. Oh deeaar (beat) [THE HORROR!] these crewmen have never been on an away mission!"

Think about it.

Thinking?

They all went camping together in Basics.
Not necessarily! Those three could have been in the bowels of the ship the whole time.

Janeway never missed them. Incompetent shepherd. The Kazon never noticed them. Incompetent wolves.

So: Everyone is still in character. The statement about them never being on an away mission is still true. Continuity is preserved.

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Old January 11 2012, 10:12 AM   #272
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

What about Demon?

Janeway ordered the entire crew to go out side and pee on the planet until it had babies?

She wouldn't touch Q's little finger, but Kathy is more than willing to sign the entire crew up for an orgy.
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Old January 12 2012, 04:00 AM   #273
exodus
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Saito S wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Sorry but I think you're overlooking the bigger picture as well as taking the concept of "family" to literally.
I'm doing no such thing.

That the "family" (i.e. the crew) would be closer and more tight-knit due to the circumstances of the ship isn't my idea. This is what was said about VOY by the cast and producers when the show was first being created. The point I was making was that the sense of family, of closeness, wasn't any more prevalent outside of the main characters (and even within the main characters, it was a very mixed bag; some relationships were well-realized and made sense, others were left to languish) than it was on TNG. This is a flaw in VOY, since the supposedly greater degree of closeness, the heightened "sense of family", was something built into the premise itself, then dropped completely. And at the same time, DS9, a show that has no such requirement built into its premise, did a masterful job of creating, developing, and utilizing a large, diverse cast of "secondary" characters.

And nowhere did I imply that I in any way thought that the VOY crew would act like a literal family.
Janeway has to worry about the ENTIRE ship ALL THE TIME.
And other Starfleet captains don't?

That's a huge exaggeration anyway. Captains have a first officer, department heads, etc. for a reason. The well-being of every last person on the ship isn't just dumped squarely on one person's shoulders (as you yourself, bizarrely, point out, in the paragraph below). Yes, the captain has more such responsibilities than any other single person, but you are making it sound like Janeway was tasked with single-handedly running the entire ship.
She doesn't have time to get to know EVERYONE on it on a personal level. She has much bigger issues to worry about on a regular basis. The person in charge of getting to know the crew and how well they work or don't is Chakotay and the senior officers of that dept. Janeway is always on the bridge, she never eats in the mess hall and is only called to sections where her senior staff is.
As I pointed out above: so which is it? Is Janeway worrying about "THE ENTIRE SHIP ALL THE TIME"? Or is it that she can't be arsed to worry about the well-being of her crew, cause she's too busy and that's what Chuckles if for? Pick one, please.

That aside: Point out where I said "Janeway should know every member of her crew on a personal level." You seem to be pounding that point REALLY hard, and it's not even what I said in the post you quoted.

The first officer and the department heads would work with the captain to determine "how well they work." This is evidenced not only by common sense, but by the number of times the captain on a given series has been involved in a scene or sub-plot involving "what should we do with crewman X". Your assertions that Janeway is "always on the bridge" and "only called to sections where her senior staff is" are overly simplistic.
When did Janeway ever have the time to get to know the entire crew on a personal level? Even when she had time off, she'd be called to the bridge. In 7 years Janeway never had the time nor luxury to get to know the entire crew personally.
I dunno, how about all that time she spent goofing off in Fair Haven? Not only did she clearly have some time off (and that's hardly the only example; the idea that she never had any time to talk to people is bollocks), there's also the possibility that, if the creators of the show had decided to spend more time showing Janeway interacting with non-main-cast crew members, maybe we would have gotten fewer ridiculous holodeck scenarios.

And again, while I never said she needed to know EVERY last crew member on a personal level ("personal level" meaning she knows some things about their personal histories, their families, their interests, has spent lots of time with them, etc.), I do think she would (and, frankly, should) know every last crew member at least minimally, by the end of the second year or so. I don't expect her to be able to recite family histories off the top of her head, but she should know everyone's name and at least a little bit about them. It's only 150-ish people (and that number goes down with each season). "Good Shepard" was about her realizing that there were people that were "left behind"; individuals on her ship that didn't feel like they were "part of the family." Well, six freakin' years into the journey is a wee bit late to be hitting on that idea.

As for the amount of transfers/personnel changes that occured on Kirk's Enterprise, zar makes a good point about the concept vs. the reality. But even if they'd stuck to the concept 100%, there still would be more new crew coming onto the ship than in Janeway's case, i.e., at all. Voyager NEVER gets any crew rotation, so even a little bit would be more. And Kirk has way more people on his ship, too.
If the Voyager crew were planning on spending the rest of their lives together because it might take generations to get home, what's the rush when you have the rest of the life to get to know your crew? What's 6 years when compared to a life time?
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Old January 12 2012, 04:04 AM   #274
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

I'm not sure how you could possibly classify six years as a rush. It's a pretty big chunk of time to be together with a relatively small group of people (and, with at least 38 casualties, most of them early on, that number should have only gotten smaller).
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Old January 12 2012, 04:23 AM   #275
exodus
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Harvey wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how you could possibly classify six years as a rush. It's a pretty big chunk of time to be together with a relatively small group of people (and, with at least 38 casualties, most of them early on, that number should have only gotten smaller).
Out of 150 crew men, it was only 3 people.
I don't see that as the crisis we're trying to make it into.
We're making it sound like she didn't know anybody on the ship but her bridge crew.
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Old January 12 2012, 04:39 AM   #276
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

You sure that they weren't just the first three?

It was half way into the second year, and she's bitching "Who's this psycho Suder? Why didn't why one tell me that of the 20 Maquis on my ship one of them was unstable?"

If she can't get her mind around 20 Terrorists running amok, how the hells could she fathom the complexities of the other 130 crewmen who were vastly different geniuses.
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Old January 12 2012, 07:17 AM   #277
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

exodus wrote: View Post
If the Voyager crew were planning on spending the rest of their lives together because it might take generations to get home, what's the rush when you have the rest of the life to get to know your crew? What's 6 years when compared to a life time?
Guess I really shouldn't have bothered with the long post.

That really makes no sense (and is not in any way an answer or rebuttal to anything I said in the post you quoted, but whatever). First, as Harvey pointed out, six years isn't a short amount of time. Comparing it to a lifetime and saying Oh, why the rush, doesn't work in this context. We're not talking about unpleasant work that needs to be done, but is being put off because it's unpleasant ("I can do that later, I have plenty of time"). Personal interaction doesn't work like that. "Well, I was gonna go to dinner with several junior officers tonight... but we've only been serving on this ship for three years, and we have an entire LIFETIME! I think I'll just wait." I mean, why would someone do that? People just interact with each other when they are all together in the same space over a long period of time. It doesn't matter how much time you have still to come, you're not rationing it out.

To say nothing of the fact that there's no guarantee it will even be a lifetime! Life on Voyager is fairly dangerous. Who knows when someone could die. And 75 years was only how long it would take to just fly all the way back at warp. They were also looking for any form of shortcuts along the way, so they were hoping it WOULDN'T be a lifetime!
exodus wrote: View Post
Out of 150 crew men, it was only 3 people.
I don't see that as the crisis we're trying to make it into.
We're making it sound like she didn't know anybody on the ship but her bridge crew.
I don't see anyone suggesting that she literally knows NO ONE outside the bridge crew.

Janeway probably did know people outside the main cast... but they don't really show that very often. Barely at all, in fact. Instead, with one episode, they make it look like this ship has never had a crew evaluation (which is what Seven's assessment thing basically IS, and you get the impression that this hasn't been done before!), and have Janeway suddenly fretting about these people that have "fallen through the cracks" after six years. Remember what I said in my last post, that Janeway should at least know minimal information about every last person on that ship? Harren's name, and the fact that he's a super science-y guy, qualifies. That he was "stuck" on deck 15 doing work he hates, while letting his actual skills go to waste, reflects very badly on Janeway, Chakotay, and Torres. How is it that no one noticed in six years that he was in the wrong position - the wrong department entirely? Torres says she's "tried" to give him more responsibility, but he doesn't do the work. That's cause it's not the kind of work he cares about or excels at. Why is he in engineering at all? He's a scientist who dislikes practical field exploration and physical repair work. Maybe he should be in, oh, I dunno... SCIENCE?! And it wouldn't require a deep, personal knowledge of the man to figure out that his talents lie in this one specific direction. It would take about five minutes of reading through his Starfleet file. Or ONE direct conversation with him.

And yes, it was only 3 people, but the tone of the episode was all wrong for - again - SIX YEARS into their journey.
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Last edited by Saito S; January 12 2012 at 07:46 AM. Reason: Thought of something else
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Old January 13 2012, 12:43 AM   #278
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

One of the biggest issues with VOY its premise leaned more towards a serialised nature. With character interaction, searching for resources etc... but it's execution was more episodic. Characterisaton/crew numbers etc.. all varied widley from one episode to the next. For example one episode it's we must obey the PD, next episode it could almost be screw the PD, then back to obeying the PD.

You want to ignore the PD sure ignore it but you show a shift in attitudes slowly over the course of several episodes from upholding it in all circumstances to slowlt becoming more lack. You want to go back to upholding the PD have a situation were you should have upheld but didn't go bad. Were the characters are forced to examine the choices they made.

Characterisation must come first in story telling.

Underneath it all with Voyager was the potential for a great show at best we got an OK show with flashes of greatness. It could have been so much more.
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Old January 13 2012, 01:04 AM   #279
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Voyager should have thrown the prime directive out the window and come up with their own set of rules as they pertain to their situation. Surely most of us were fed up of hearing about the prime directive by the end of TNG anyway.

Regarding all the lower decks/lack of coupling and babymaking discussion. It all comes down to Voyager ignoring people outside of the main cast, a source of many of its problems and what made the show more shallow and less believable.
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Old January 13 2012, 02:37 AM   #280
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
One of the biggest issues with VOY its premise leaned more towards a serialised nature. With character interaction, searching for resources etc... but it's execution was more episodic. Characterisaton/crew numbers etc.. all varied widley from one episode to the next. For example one episode it's we must obey the PD, next episode it could almost be screw the PD, then back to obeying the PD.

You want to ignore the PD sure ignore it but you show a shift in attitudes slowly over the course of several episodes from upholding it in all circumstances to slowlt becoming more lack. You want to go back to upholding the PD have a situation were you should have upheld but didn't go bad. Were the characters are forced to examine the choices they made.

Characterisation must come first in story telling.

Underneath it all with Voyager was the potential for a great show at best we got an OK show with flashes of greatness. It could have been so much more.
I hear what you're saying , however I think if many of us were actualiy in Janeway shoes we'd want to uphold the values we had but would find sometimes we'd have to make choices that required us to bend the rules. In an event like "The Killing Game". The Hirogen had over run your ship, even thought you're free they still over number you 3 to 1. What other way could you think of to make them peacefully leave your ship? In a situation like that, I'd think you'd have to bend or break the rules for the safety of all on board.

On a side note, the the secondary cast on Voyage were used when the actors were available. They brought an actor back from s1 "Learning Curve" for s6(?) "Nothing Human". IMO the fact they brought him back, tells me they didn't forget but rather other elements are in play here.

I don't feel the writers forgot about the characters, it's just that the actor maybe busy working on other projects, much like the featured crew men of the Equinox. All of those actors have been in many other shows and movies while Voyager was in production. Another example is the actress playing Sam Wildman. She was writing and shopping around her own created show at the time. The end result was "My Boys" on TBS. As we also read, other actors (Examples:Ashly Judd/Kirstie Alley) don't want to get locked into contracts as re-accurring characters on a Trek show. They'd rather leave their status open hoping for bigger roles for better exposure. Many also feel Trek will type cast them. How many of the reaccurring cast of Trek have gone on to bigger projects? Off the top of my head I can only think of Dwight Shultz & Jeffery Combs, who already had promising careers before Trek.

Most producers rather not do a Zyal and prefer one actor play the role due to viewer attachment. So instead of giving to parts to someone else, they just don't have certain characters return until they can work out some free time in that actors schedule.

Frankly, I think it was worth waiting 6 years to get "The Boy Who Could Fly" a featured role on Voyager.
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Old January 13 2012, 03:50 AM   #281
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Voyager should have thrown the prime directive out the window and come up with their own set of rules as they pertain to their situation.
They did- around about the end of the 3rd season. Voyager's primary arc was Janeway's extremely gradual descent into insanity.
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Old January 13 2012, 04:24 AM   #282
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

If Janeway was "going" insane, some else on the ship who was "sane" or going insane at a different rate would notice, and feel compelled to deal with her... Oh? Would the Doctors sanity be static or for long term use (which is not in his remit) would he programmed to be keep pace with the mean ethical standing of the crew, just like the doctor on the Equinox.

What I meant to say is that she was as insane in the pilot as the conclusion, or her crw is a bunch of weaklings.

Have you seen ENT Hatchery?

It's quite difficult to relieve a Capotin of Command, hells the Doctor was almost erased in Year of Hell.
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Old January 13 2012, 06:23 AM   #283
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Would the Doctors sanity be static...
If the doc went insane, they could just reload him from that that EMH backup that springs into existence whenever it's convenient.
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Old January 13 2012, 07:52 AM   #284
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

But they would only notice if he was going insane at a faster rate than they were.
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Old January 13 2012, 08:45 AM   #285
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

They'd also notice if he meandered off into crazy land more slowly than the others.

It sounds like an old episode of the Twilight Zone. A starship is sent off on a decades-long journey. It's equipped with a computerized psychiatrist to combat the effects of "space dementia." The crew panics when the computerized doc starts to fail, spouting illogical recommendations. They reload the program from the incorruptable backup and reboot. Egads! The doc is exactly the same.
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