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Old July 21 2011, 01:49 PM   #196
Guy Gardener
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
But it's not them cutting through someone else's property. It's you just travelling around and then some jackass comes in and says "This is my land even though my house is 2000 miles away" without any real proof of ownership and then taking pot shots at you for going through an utterly empty space that these so-called owners have done little to nothing with to mark as their own.
They had a tachyon detection net panning the entire perimeter of their empire. Picard required over 20 starships to erect one of those to cover the Klingon/Romunlan border in the Klingon Civil war and those ships were only each separated by a few hours travel at high warp.

15 months to go around their tachyon detection net, which means maybe 30 months to circumnavigate the entire bastard.

That means that they would need 20 starbases per one days travel around the perimeter of Swarmie space....

20 starbases x 30 days x 30 months = 18000 starbases surrounding the perimeter of swarmy space if swarmie technology is comparable to Federation in 2368.

That sounds like a bloody big fence and manifest destiny to me.

If their nieghbours disagreed with that fence, it wouldn't be there. Neelix lived nearly 3 thousand light years away and he respected and feared that fence, from after just hearing drunk 4th hand horror stories around campfires closer to home years earlier.

What criteria do you believe that Janeway used to decide if Aliens own the space they live in?

(I'm sure I've done this for you before...)

TUVOK: I've made numerous hails on wideband subspace. The only response has been a single repeating message.
CHAKOTAY: What's that?
JANEWAY: I'd guess it's a language so unlike ours that the universal translator can't interpret it. Harry, remodulate the translator, see if we can decipher those sounds. Neelix, what can you tell us?
NEELIX: If these people are who I think they are, I can tell you this is very bad news. I've never actually encountered them but from what I've heard I'm glad I didn't. Most ships that enter their space are never heard from again. Some have returned with everyone on board dead. They're a complete mystery. No one knows their name, how many of them there are, what the culture is like. Just that they really don't want people violating their territory.
KIM: If this is any indication of their borders, it's a huge area of space, hundreds of sectors. If we were to go around it it would take months.
CHAKOTAY: I'd say over fifteen months even if we could sustain maximum warp, which we can't.
JANEWAY: I'm not going to tell this crew we're adding another fifteen months to this journey. We'll have to find another option.
TUVOK: If we are not to go around their space the only available option is to go through it.
JANEWAY: Precisely.
KIM: Tom and B'Elanna hit a sensor net as they crossed the border. We have to figure we'll run into it when we try to cross. But there are ways around sensor nets.
CHAKOTAY: They can't possibly have enough ships to patrol a border this size. We could probably find an unguarded section.
TUVOK: Would it affect your decision if I pointed out that encroaching on the territory of an alien species is prohibited by starfleet regulations?
JANEWAY: No, it wouldn't.
TUVOK: Captain, you have managed to surprise me.
JANEWAY: We're a long way from starfleet, Lieutenant. I'm not about to waste 15 months because we've run into a bunch of bullies.
EMH [OC]: Sickbay to Captain Janeway.
JANEWAY: Go ahead, Doctor.
EMH [OC]: Please turn to your emergency medical holographic channel. [on monitor] I'm afraid LieutenantParis suffered greater neurological damage than my initial scan revealed. I'm going to have to perform a motor cortex reconstruction. There's no need to be overly concerned. His condition is not life-threatening. The procedure is a relatively simple one for a skilled physician.
JANEWAY: Very good, Doctor. Keep me informed. All right, I want a plan for crossing that border as quickly and as quietly as possible. We'll reconvene in an hour. Dismissed.
They knew it was Swarm space.

There was never any doubt.

She just didn't care.

Janeway knew she was breaking bad, but she just didn't give a fig, hell she almost turned her feelings inside out to justify rending federation law into confetti for her own big 21 steel drum parade for diddling over another bunch of idiot aliens.

Remember this?

DURKEN: What do you want?
PICARD: A beginning. But how we proceed is entirely up to you.
DURKEN: And if my wishes should conflict with yours?
PICARD: There'll be no conflict.
DURKEN: And if I should tell you to leave and never return to my world?
PICARD: We will leave and never return. Chancellor, we are here only to help guide you into a new era. I can assure you we will not interfere in the natural development of your planet. That is, in fact, our Prime Directive.
Good times.

This made me laugh

ALIEN [on viewscreen]: You're trespassing in Chokuzan space.
Q2: We were just leaving.
ALIEN [on viewscreen]: Our laws require that you be incarcerated pending an investigation.
Q2: How long will that take?
ALIEN [on viewscreen]: Disengage your engines and prepare to be boarded.
ICHEB: We should do as he says.
Q2: Why? Just because he has a bigger ship?
ICHEB: Because Captain Janeway has taught us to respect the laws of other cultures.
Q2: I should have known better than to bring you along.
They must not have told Icheb how Janeway dealt with the Swarm.
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Old December 20 2011, 12:41 AM   #197
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

starlitegirl wrote: View Post
I want to add something on this wondering if anyone else noted it since I'm just watching it now:

In Voyager S4E24 Demon - they allow DNA copies of themselves to be made by the primordial stuff on that planet that wants to be sentient.

In S4E26 Hope & Fear they get slipstream technology but don't use it until a future episode...

In S5E1 Night - they use a wormhole that cuts 2 years off their journey.

In S5E6 Timeless - they adapt the slipstream technology from Hope & Fear and ultimately shave off 10 years from their journey.

In S5E15 Dark Frontier part 2 - they use the Borg transwarp coil and shave another 15 years off their journey.

Now here is the part that gets me:

In S5E17 Course: Oblivion - the duplicates made in Demon had ventured toward earth 'home' having forgotten they were duplicates. They can't survive any longer due to the warp drive (and I think because they need to be on a Y class planet). Ultimately, they fall apart in space. At the end, the real Voyager crosses path with whatever was left floating in space, yet how could the real Voyager come across the duplicates when the real Voyager was already 25-27 years ahead of them? The Demon Voyager is a copy of the original and doesn't have different abilities. So I don't understand how the two could have crossed paths at all unless maybe they changed a stardate recording in a log entry (since I don't pay attention to them) and made it actually an earlier entry than it was, but even then - in the episode they state that 18 months had passed for the Demon Voyager since they left the Demon planet and on the real Voyager it would have to be the same 18 months, wouldn't it?

So how could they cross paths when one is 25 years closer to earth?
Signed up for this forum/board because of this inconsistency/discontinuity and started googling to see how many others people had found.

Wanted to add to starlite's list a bit.

The duplicate ship and crew left the Demon planet after the real Voyager.

In S5E1 Night, Voyager destroys the vortex that cut 2/2.5 years off their journey, so the duplicate couldn't have used it. The other 2 methods of "faster than warp" travel are unlikely for the duplicate as well. So there's no way they could have caught up to the originals. Unless they found a wormhole that gets them nearly halfway to Earth that wasn't even worth mentioning in S5E17?

-------

How does Voyager first encounter the Malon species during S5E1 Night, then use a stolen trans warp coil in S5E15-16 Dark Frontier to travel 20k LY, and in S5E21 Juggernaut run into another Malon ship? Dark Frontier was obviously aired and placed incorrectly on a timeline.


-------
Crew compliment numbers

Voyager had an explicit crew of 127 on it at one point. Do officers and captains not count as crew but Tuvok and Chakotay do?

S5E4 In The Flesh wrote:
[Corridor]
CHAKOTAY: Not taking any chances, are you?
JANEWAY: Don't feel singled out. I've asked the Doctor to examine the entire crew. There's no telling how 8472 got their information about Starfleet. From the Borg, Earth. For all we know there's been an impostor on board.
[Sickbay - Doctor's office]
EMH: Cell morphology normal, all of your nucleotide sequences are accounted for, you're a hundred percent human.
CHAKOTAY: That's a relief. And Tuvok?
EMH: Green blooded Vulcan through and through. Well, two down, one hundred and twenty five to go.
Only two episodes later that number jumps 25 people.

S5E6 Timeless wrote:
KIM [on monitor]: Hello, Harry. I don't have much time, so listen to me. Fifteen years ago, I made a mistake and one hundred and fifty people died. I've spent every day since then regretting that mistake, but if you're watching this right now, that means all of that has changed. You owe me one.
-------

S3E13 Fair Trade wrote:
NEELIX: You'll have to provide us with a sample of warp plasma. I wouldn't take any from Voyager.
BAHRAT: What I can give you won't be of the same quality.
NEELIX: Doesn't matter, we'll make do.
BAHRAT: All right, we'll try it. But I don't hold any hopes that you will survive.
S3E23 Distant Origin wrote:
GEGEN [OC]: Across the vastness of space to find one ship among sea of stars is no easy matter, and for many weeks we found nothing. And then fortune glanced in our direction. A trader from a space station bordering the Nekrit Expanse informed us of a curious group of explorers, claiming to be from the other side of the galaxy. The merchants there spoke of a vessel called Voyager. They were able to help us clarify certain details. With this new information, we began to acquire other items and new evidence. Our most significant find - a canister of warp plasma from Voyager's engines, so now we are scanning space for a matching signature. Little is known about these explorers, but they call themselves human
--------

This isn't really an inconsistency as much as it is a silly scene change.

S4E23 Living Witness wrote:
[Pseudo Engineering] pTUVOK: three of the engineering crew. They've taken Seven of Nine and one of the injured crew members hostage.
[Pseudo Bridge]
pTUVOK [OC]: They're now on deck two, section thirty two.
The Kyrian intruders went from deck 11 to deck 2 in the amount of time it took Tuvok to raise his arm and tap his comm badge?

There are a couple more inconsistencies with the placement or distance to the Mess Hall imo.

S2E3 Projections wrote:
NEELIX [OC]: Neelix to bridge. Is anyone there? Emergency!
JANEWAY: Neelix, this is the Captain. What's wrong?
NEELIX [OC]: Help. I need help! I'm in the mess hall. There's a
(Weapons fire.)
JANEWAY: Neelix, are you there? Neelix? With the turbolifts down it'll take me a half hour to get there. Doctor, it's up to you. I'll use the remote projectors to send you to the Mess hall. Stand by for transfer.
While this was an EMH hallucination, it still doesn't make sense to take 30 minutes to climb a ladder down 1 deck.


I can't remember or find the episodes for it, I believe in another episode, someone asks the turbolift to take them to the Mess Hall on Deck 5 or 6.

--------

Cruising speed of 9.975?

S3E4 The Swarm wrote:
TUVOK: They appear not to have detected us. They have not powered up engines.
JANEWAY: All right, let's get through this as fast as we can. Mister Paris, what's your recommendation?
PARIS: I'll try holding warp nine point seven five for as long as I can.
CHAKOTAY: If we can sustain that for twelve hours we'll be nearly a third of the way through.
and of course

S2E15 Threshold wrote:
KIM: They're approaching warp nine point nine.
CHAKOTAY: Increase speed to match.
COMPUTER: Warning. Nearing maximum warp velocity. Structural collapse is imminent.
CHAKOTAY: Are we in tractor range?
KIM: No. And they're still accelerating. Warp nine point nine seven.
COMPUTER: Warning. At present speed, structural failure in forty five seconds.
CHAKOTAY: Reduce sped to warp nine point five. Keep a sensor lock on them as long as you can.

--------

Since people brought up toilets, they are at least mentioned.

S5E12 Bride of Chaotica wrote:
NEELIX: Yes, ma'am. Coffee, black. While I've got your attention, there are.
JANEWAY: Coffee first. Now, what's the problem?
NEELIX: It's a, it's a delicate matter.
JANEWAY: I don't have time to play twenty questions, Neelix.
NEELIX: Replicators aren't the only systems of convenience offline. We've only got four functioning lavatories for a ship of a hundred and fifty people.
JANEWAY: I see.
NEELIX: Needless to say, lines are beginning to form. If we don't get unstuck soon we may have a serious problem on our hands. Especially with the Bolians. All but three sonic showers are offline, too. In another couple of days.
JANEWAY: I get the idea.
---------

As for
S1E6 The Cloud wrote:
CHAKOTAY: We have a complement of thirty eight photon torpedoes at our disposal, Captain.
JANEWAY: And no way to replace them after they're gone.
Maybe she meant while they were stuck in the nebula/creature.

As for later replicating torpedoes, if they needed an industrial replicator, is it ever mentioned anywhere how big one is? What's to stop them from replicating parts and building a bigger replicator? Bajor only got a handful of them because they weren't a member of the Federation and no one really liked them anyway. Help them too much and they couldn't play victim any more.
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Old December 20 2011, 01:14 AM   #198
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Remembered another I left out before.

S3E8-9 Future's End wrote:
JANEWAY: We're in Starling's office. I want you to establish a comm. link with my tricorder and try to upload his computer database.
KIM [OC]: Aye Captain. We'll need a few minutes to reconfigure to their binary system.
Referring to Starling's 1990s computer system as an insult to make it sound primitive.

S3E23 Distant Origin wrote:
GEGEN: Well, they are mammals, after all. Ah, over here. This appears to be a computer access terminal. Simple binary system. I've downloaded their database.
Again trying to use binary as if it were an insult of being inferior but this time insulting Voyager's computer.
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Old December 20 2011, 01:45 AM   #199
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

As I recall earlier DSN episodes hinted about the Dominion, like that region on the edge of Gamma quadrant end of the Bajorian wormhole was on the outside edge of DOminion space not within it.

If that was the case, the Federation didn't violate Dominion space until they started to venture deeper into that region.

Dominion reasoning could at that point have changed to something more along the lines of. These people are technoloically advanced and pose a threat to us (given the founders distrust of solids) so we'll tell them to stay on their side of the wormhole. That is untilwe have assembled an Invasion fleet to conquer/destroy them.
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Old December 20 2011, 01:53 AM   #200
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

The continuity errors/illogical-ness really slapped me across the face the first time I watched the show.
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Old December 24 2011, 12:46 AM   #201
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

There was no explanation why they found a colony of Talaxians so far away from Talaxia, especially with the many thousands of light year distance Voyager had travelled with all the shortcuts between Series 1 (when they were in the region of Talaxia) and series 7.

Same thing, to a lesser extent with the Hirogen too...
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Old December 24 2011, 03:35 AM   #202
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
There was no explanation why they found a colony of Talaxians so far away from Talaxia, especially with the many thousands of light year distance Voyager had travelled with all the shortcuts between Series 1 (when they were in the region of Talaxia) and series 7.

Same thing, to a lesser extent with the Hirogen too...
Why do we question why Talaxians can get that far in their own Quaderant but never question that Klingons are EVERYWHERE in the AQ but come from Beta?
Shouldn't Sisko's trip to Kronos take just as long as Voyager's trek thru Kazon space?

The Hirogen are like sharks. Sharks cover allot of ground because they never sleep and just hunt. A Shark will follow it's prey/food great distances to feed. I think it makes sense with that obsessive mentality that the Hirogen can and do cover light years hunting.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:17 AM   #203
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

exodus wrote: View Post
Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
There was no explanation why they found a colony of Talaxians so far away from Talaxia, especially with the many thousands of light year distance Voyager had travelled with all the shortcuts between Series 1 (when they were in the region of Talaxia) and series 7.

Same thing, to a lesser extent with the Hirogen too...
Why do we question why Talaxians can get that far in their own Quaderant but never question that Klingons are EVERYWHERE in the AQ but come from Beta?
Shouldn't Sisko's trip to Kronos take just as long as Voyager's trek thru Kazon space?

The Hirogen are like sharks. Sharks cover allot of ground because they never sleep and just hunt. A Shark will follow it's prey/food great distances to feed. I think it makes sense with that obsessive mentality that the Hirogen can and do cover light years hunting.
On the first point, its more logical that Klingons could be everywhere in the AQ because at least in TNG times they're allies with the Federation and could use starbases and such to refuel if there wasn't a klingon outpost nearby, thereby extending their range significantly.

What was portrayed as a tiny settlement had no business being so impossibly far from the established homeland of Talaxia and smacked of the writers phoning it in at that point.
"Lets give Neelix a happy ending with his own people...."
..."Whaddya mean the logistics and limitations of this show mean he wouldn't see his own people, I dunno make something up, I'm mentally on vacation already anyway..."

The second point is like a shark following its prey off the coast of Australia all the way around the world to the coast of Wales or something, again you'd think an unlikely premise.
But again it was series 7 and the writers just wanted to re-use a fan favourite race without giving a damn that the Voyager should've been long past them by now.

I'm not a big fan of replying to Voyager specific examples with "yeah, well TNG/DS9 also did something stupid that's a bit like that" btw. We're here in the Voyager forum talking about Voyager issues, to drag other series in is just irrelevant imo.
#Justsaying

Just thought of another example too as I typed all this:
The Vaudwaaur.
Dragon's Teeth was billed as a big game changer for Voyager, a race of Aliens older than the Borg with an ending that didn't so much as imply more PROMISED that they'd be back to threaten Voyager again, yet they vanished into the same black hole that got the Equinox Crew, the Borg Baby and that changed the timeline so there was suddenly an Ensign Lindsay Ballard that everyone suddenly remembered.
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Old December 24 2011, 04:42 AM   #204
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

On the first point, its more logical that Klingons could be everywhere in the AQ because at least in TNG times they're allies with the Federation and could use starbases and such to refuel if there wasn't a klingon outpost nearby, thereby extending their range significantly.
I would think the Talaxians would do just as well using the same system non-allies of the Federation do, barter & trade. Plus, I don't think we have any idea what makes Talaxian ships run or if their warp drives are faster.
The second point is like a shark following its prey off the coast of Australia all the way around the world to the coast of Wales or something, again you'd think an unlikely premise.
For a shark, agreed.
For a Humanoid species in a good sea fairing vessel, not so much.
I'm not a big fan of replying to Voyager specific examples with "yeah, well TNG/DS9 also did something stupid that's a bit like that" btw. We're here in the Voyager forum talking about Voyager issues, to drag other series in is just irrelevant imo.
#Justsaying
Understood but I never consider what's said here, private personal conversation nor void of use of examples.
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Old December 24 2011, 06:32 AM   #205
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
There was no explanation why they found a colony of Talaxians so far away from Talaxia, especially with the many thousands of light year distance Voyager had travelled with all the shortcuts between Series 1 (when they were in the region of Talaxia) and series 7.

Same thing, to a lesser extent with the Hirogen too...
I think the writers just didn't care at that point, they just wanted to tell whatever story they wanted to tell. To hell with realism.
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Old December 24 2011, 11:09 PM   #206
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

This is also why the "Always on the move" premise severely limited what they could do with the show.
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Old December 24 2011, 11:42 PM   #207
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
This is also why the "Always on the move" premise severely limited what they could do with the show.
The premise was that they were thrown 70,000 lightyears away TRYING to get home. That didn't mean that the ship always needed to be in perfect condition able to go to warp 9.9 and passing everything by. They still could have done a ton of things.
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Old December 25 2011, 05:44 AM   #208
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

And when they tried to do something like that, by having them run into the Kazon and Viidians for longer periods the fan reaction was bad enough to make the showrunners give up on the idea of VOY doing anything other than always "pass through" areas of space.

If they had done other stories where they stayed in one area for more than one episode, the reaction would still be negative in that they weren't always on the move.

They needed to get rid of the "always moving" thing completely, and have them stay in one big area of space for most of the series.
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Old December 25 2011, 07:37 PM   #209
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
And when they tried to do something like that, by having them run into the Kazon and Viidians for longer periods the fan reaction was bad enough to make the showrunners give up on the idea of VOY doing anything other than always "pass through" areas of space.

If they had done other stories where they stayed in one area for more than one episode, the reaction would still be negative in that they weren't always on the move.

They needed to get rid of the "always moving" thing completely, and have them stay in one big area of space for most of the series.
Actually I think the fan reaction was more that the Kazon were rubbish knock off Klingons and they didn't want to see them rather than getting annoyed that Voyager was seeing the same species a lot.
Heck, more of the Vidiians and less of the Kazon would've gone down better IMO

A whole year spent in Borg Space, (as long as it meant little to no direct contact with cubes but more the desperate non-Borg worlds and ships the Voyager was forced to deal with to survive) or the oft mentioned proper Year of Hell would've been well received by fans I imagine.

Its just each season had its recurring enemies (Kazon, Borg, Hirogen, Malon, Vaadwaur...oh wait, not them) and also the producers pushing the notion that they were getting closer to home (Transwarp Jumps, Slipstream corridors, Kes' Gift, Catapult, etc) without realising the two were mutually exclusive.
If you want to show the ship getting closer to home, you'd better change up the alien threats a bit, and vice versa.

Yet Ironically over on DS9 you did get the impression that the Dominion controlled the majority of the Gamma Quadrant and if any ship got stranded over there they'd be dealing with them for the majority of their trip back.
The producers were seemingly unwilling to talk up a permanent alien threat like that for the Delta quadrant so were left in a pickle: recurring aliens or giant leaps home....hmmmm why not both and to hell with the fans?
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Old December 25 2011, 11:28 PM   #210
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Re: What continuity errors are there on Voyager?

The Pax Dominion, for lack of a better term.

(The Pax Romana was such that if a Roman Citizen was killed by a barbarian, a hundred of those same barbarians, preferably family members of the murderer,and the murderer him/herself would be crucified.)

They were alpowerful and didn't feel the need to advertise or revel in it, on the ther hand they didn't take shit form anyone.

If anyone pissed them off, that person/faction's planet was annihilated in one way or another.

They didn't need to maintain an illusion of strength.

They had strength.

Remember Iraq before the war? All those statues and buildings with Saddam's face painted on the side? For me to notice, I assume it was every other building that had his face painted on it.

By comparison, the Dominion does not have a small penis.

I also think that forcing American School children to pledge allegiance to their flag every morning, is pushing it a bit as far as social programming brainwashing goes.... On the other hand if 5 minutes were put to one side where children who voluntarily "wanted/needed" to pledge allegiance to their flag were allowed to do so...

An idea like that is what starts school yard lynchings.

You know like how Jewish kids are (used to be?) victimized at boarding school until they got into line and said grace with the "normal" children.
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