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Old November 25 2013, 12:23 AM   #871
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Back in my college days, me and my buddy would visit another bud at the school dorm and we would race him up to the 9th floor (or from the 9th floor down to the 1st) as he took the elevator and we took the stairs. You can cover alot of distance if you put your mind to it.

I have no problem seeing Spock run from the bridge to the engineering room in under 2 minutes. (That's about the time Spock entered the dilithium room as Kirk asks for it from his "mark" at 2 minutes 10 seconds, IIRC.)
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Old November 25 2013, 04:42 AM   #872
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
IIRC we never see the extended corridor again once the ship is operational (and in TWOK this corridor ended where such a display panel would be).
That's a bit misleading. Although we're not shown that corridor again in the same movie (IIRC) it doesn't validate that it's a holocorridor (which again, makes no sense as to it's existence.)
While scanning TMP again, the FP corridor does appear again in TMP as you can see the edge of it in the top right of the screencap. (The image is from Trekcore.com but for whatever reason this specific screencapture isn't there anymore and their numbering sequence is different.)

Click to make larger. Image Copyright CBS Paramount Studios/Trekcore.com




Mytran wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
As to where Scotty and Kirk ran off to when the transporter malfunctioned, I figured it was to the transporter in the engineering hull and thus out and to the starboard corridor. There's room on the starboard side and also if they needed to go down a ladder one level to the space between the engine room and the cargo bay for a transporter to be placed there.
The issue with the timing and layout of the Engineering/Transporter Room/Corridor scenes is an interesting one. We're not given any on-screen indication of where the Transporter Rooms are, but backstage materials put them in the saucer, and presumably the Engine Room is near the top of the secondary hull. Between leaving the Engine Room and arriving at the Transporter Booth a little under 9 movie-seconds elapse. I'm willing to grant that some time may have been lost in editing, but a transporter cycle just isn't that long, even in TMP.

I doubt that there is really time for Kirk & Scotty to race down the corridor in the secondary hull, wait for some doors to open, board a turbolift, call out their destination, wait for the doors to close, ride 8 decks upwards and sideways, get out of the turbolift and run down enough corridors so that Kirk can lose his way again later.

I'm sorry to say it, but Commander Sonak & Lori would have been mush on the Transporter Room floor before Kirk and Scotty had even got to the turbolift.

So, what else might be happening on screen? It struck me that Kirk & Scotty dash out of the Engine Room set in the direction of where the Transporter Room set is, on the stage layout. I do not know whether this was a deliberate choice by the director or a casual choice by the actors, but it got me thinking:

What if the Transporter Room really is just down the corridor from the Engine Room?



There's certainly plenty of space on the stageplan layout to place the visible sections of blue corridor, silver corridor and Transporter Room. However, whether we treat the painted backdrops as actual corridors or not, we would quickly run out of room in the secondary hull for the Transporter Room corridor, even on a 1164' length vessel.
Valid points - although I was thinking of this arrangement:

(Click image to enlarge)


It puts the transporter room on the level below the engine room and only one ladder climb down.

Also, I noticed that the transporter room is very tall and thus having 12' deck heights would be rather convenient.

And having the transporter room close to engineering isn't unusual since in TOS ("Mudd's Women") there was one down there and in "The Enemy Within" we know the transporter relies on the engines for its velocity balancing.

Now, as to a copy of the setup in the saucer - I like it! But, a couple of issues come up that make it impossible for me to have a copy of it in the saucer.

1. The horizontal power conduit leads off to two points up but not down towards the neck.
2. This early view down works out for 12' decks. To make the decks shorter would require some widening of the glass opening/railings. That plays havoc with other angles on it. Even though the stage level itself might be 7' below it and there is a FP painting on the floor, it's not shown as a 7' deck in these instances. (Actually, the 7' deck is only noticeable in later scenes which would arguably be from the engineering hull and even then, the visibility of the FP floor makes it a weird optical illusion question...)

Now, with that said, I think it would work on the Reliant and other ships that lack it's own engineering hull. It would certainly explain why the warp core on the Saratoga in DS9 got hit
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Old November 25 2013, 07:52 AM   #873
Mytran
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Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Having an engine room in the saucer not only fixes the corridor issue, but (since we never see the long PTC again after the first time) allows us to imagine that the space underneath Main Engineering is very different, with numerous PTCs leading off to the various subsystems (main deflector, anyone?), bypasses, and thus some of rationalisation for putting Spock's death-room in the place it is.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
While scanning TMP again, the FP corridor does appear again in TMP as you can see the edge of it in the top right of the screencap.
Oops! Is that the scene where everyone is running to their posts as they prepare to enter the cloud? Any chance that Scotty could have returned to Saucer Engineering for a moment?

One thing I did notice it the set of grey doors on the top-left. Something Shane Johnson also included on his plans, and very sensible too - now the engineers have somewhere to go to the toilet when the main doors are sealed!

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Valid points - although I was thinking of this arrangement:

It puts the transporter room on the level below the engine room and only one ladder climb down.
I have to say I admire the simpler logic of your solution and it provides just as reasonable an explanation for the Turboshaft 8/Decker scene. I too have no problem with tranporter rooms in the seconday hull. I hadn't noticed the height of the Transporter Room set (odd, since they took such pains in TMP to have lower ceilings elsewhere). Is that really a 12' high T-Room set though or would 10' be enough?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
1. The horizontal power conduit leads off to two points up but not down towards the neck.
Quite so - but I imagined the saucer PTC being connected directly to the Impulse Deck (which in turn is connected to the main PTC) which would justify the presence of the V-split. It's a stretch, I know.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
2. This early view down works out for 12' decks. To make the decks shorter would require some widening of the glass opening/railings. That plays havoc with other angles on it. Even though the stage level itself might be 7' below it and there is a FP painting on the floor, it's not shown as a 7' deck in these instances.
This is something I wrestled with, but in the end I was unable to determine what was actually being portrayed here so just went with 9' decks, since they would fit into a 1,164' Enterprise. Have you been able to extrapolate the exact heights using your vector-software program?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Actually, the 7' deck is only noticeable in later scenes which would arguably be from the engineering hull and even then, the visibility of the FP floor makes it a weird optical illusion question...
Actually, it seems they scrapped the backdrop painting in later scenes and just went with floorboards! Or is that just the painting seen from a different angle? There don't seem to be enough details present. Either way, the shortened deck height is painfully obvious - I might say not even 7'...
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Old November 25 2013, 11:13 AM   #874
Robert Comsol
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Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It puts the transporter room on the level below the engine room and only one ladder climb down.

Also, I noticed that the transporter room is very tall and thus having 12' deck heights would be rather convenient.
Clever and elegant solution. (Now, if they could just do TMP-R and fix that awful transporter beam effect).

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
And having the transporter room close to engineering isn't unusual since in TOS ("Mudd's Women") there was one down there and in "The Enemy Within" we know the transporter relies on the engines for its velocity balancing.
And in "Dagger of the Mind". Now that's just great, I had originally promoted a TOS transporter room one deck below the stardrive engine room (to rationalize the Nomad evac scene in "The Changeling"), given up on that and now it comes back full turn.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I think it would work on the Reliant and other ships that lack it's own engineering hull. It would certainly explain why the warp core on the Saratoga in DS9 got hit
That's a fresh, unorthodox and new concept (can't say I dislike it but I'm still a little sceptical). The remaining question is inevitably where does the matter-antimatter reaction take place and where do we place the reactant pods?

Or - in case of the TMP Enterprise - does the main reaction occur only in the engineering hull, then the shaft goes up to the saucer, runs horizontally (to feed the impulse engines) before it finally goes down to the ventral sensor dome and feeds the phasers on the way?

That could at least partially explain Decker's phaser-power-through-main-energy statement.

The only thing that is certain is that we never got a good look at what's below the main engine room level in TWOK. And depending on how much we seriously consider the Constitution Class refit design from TUC, the area below mustn't necessarily reveal a shaft that goes down all the way to the bottom.

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 25 2013 at 11:52 AM.
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Old November 25 2013, 11:38 AM   #875
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Having an engine room in the saucer not only fixes the corridor issue, but (since we never see the long PTC again after the first time) allows us to imagine that the space underneath Main Engineering is very different, with numerous PTCs leading off to the various subsystems (main deflector, anyone?), bypasses, and thus some of rationalisation for putting Spock's death-room in the place it is. ... Actually, it seems they scrapped the backdrop painting in later scenes and just went with floorboards!
Hope you don't mind I combined two statements of yours into one. The angle the shot is taken from would also allow the existence of the energizer room ("death-room") aboard the TMP Enterprise already - if we didn't have that shot which equally looks weird below the main room level (for the simple reason that the set didn't go further below).

Mytran wrote: View Post
One thing I did notice is the set of grey doors on the top-left. Something Shane Johnson also included on his plans, and very sensible too - now the engineers have somewhere to go to the toilet when the main doors are sealed!
But they would only get in there in pairs, the "zipper" of the radiation protection suit is on the back, so you'd need someone help you take it off.

I would have preferred rad suit lockers behind that door, but the screencap clearly shows two engineers in rad suits coming in from the blue corridor instead (which is probably where the rad suit lockers are and could explain some personnel movement in the background during the Kirk-Decker scene).

Bob
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Old November 25 2013, 12:23 PM   #876
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post

Just two more thoughts.

Kirk left the bridge in a turbo lift cab but would have had to take an almost half-circle ride to get to / exit the blue corridor near the bow.
And wouldn't the engine room be too wide to allow for two vertical bridge turbo shafts?

Would it not be possible that the long vertical intermix shaft we saw first in TMP, is actually the one running down through the connecting dorsal (whose top ends in the impulse deflection crystal) and the Y-split at the end (of a shorter horizontal shaft) actually is a backup feed to the impulse engines?
Also looks like this could work more than well for deck heights suggested by Mr. Probert compared to the levels we see (the bottom plate of the shaft would be inevitable as between the torpedo launch tubes there'd only be enough space for the shaft itself).

After all, the Reliant's impulse deflection crystal was destroyed but apparently the ship was still able to run with "full impulse power" and apparently working impulse engines, judging by their redish particle exhaust glow?

That would also salvage Mr. Probert's design intention (and would definitely make me feel a whole lot better).

This way the previously "impossible" blue corridor (add to this the one near the transporter room) would be feasible with the FP extension and we'd have an impulse engine and a stardrive engine room (just as the ship had in TOS).

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 25 2013 at 01:09 PM.
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Old November 25 2013, 02:46 PM   #877
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I've yet to take measurements but I have a horrible feeling you are right (about the Bridge turboshafts). I think there might be room on the starboard side where the horizontal PTC corridor is narrower, but not on the port - although maybe the shaft layout is just not that symmetrical? To be honest though, I think that a saucer engine room (in the format I proposed) is going to be creating more problems than it solves

As for your proposal - again, I only have MS Paint to hand right now, but I think it WOULD fit, even on a 1,000' vessel. The shortened horizontal PTC is not a problem, in fact the more I watch TWOK the more I think a set-accurate build may be in order!

The biggest problem is that the (Engine Room level) long corridor would have to run along the dorsal pylon through the saucer undercut, leaving very little (if any) space for the sideways doors and corridors to open up into!
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Old November 25 2013, 03:25 PM   #878
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
While scanning TMP again, the FP corridor does appear again in TMP as you can see the edge of it in the top right of the screencap.
Oops! Is that the scene where everyone is running to their posts as they prepare to enter the cloud? Any chance that Scotty could have returned to Saucer Engineering for a moment?
It's the scene as Scotty is prepping the ship to go to warp right before the wormhole accident. I would like to think that he's watching the engineering hull engine room

Mytran wrote: View Post
One thing I did notice it the set of grey doors on the top-left. Something Shane Johnson also included on his plans, and very sensible too - now the engineers have somewhere to go to the toilet when the main doors are sealed!
LOL. Didn't that door also double as a turbolift on the Excelsior TSFS set when Scotty runs into the Excelsior captain?

Mytran wrote: View Post
I hadn't noticed the height of the Transporter Room set (odd, since they took such pains in TMP to have lower ceilings elsewhere). Is that really a 12' high T-Room set though or would 10' be enough?
I think 10' would be a minimum - however you can take Kirk (5'10"-6' depending on his shoes) and he's like a 1' off the floor in that shielded room. You can stack 2 of him vertically in the main transporter room so I think the height is closer to 12'.

Mytran wrote: View Post
Quite so - but I imagined the saucer PTC being connected directly to the Impulse Deck (which in turn is connected to the main PTC) which would justify the presence of the V-split. It's a stretch, I know.
Not too much of a stretch though. It does use up alot of space that might've been for machinery near the impulse engine and turbolift space by the undercut of the saucer since it's a tall deck to start off with...

Mytran wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
2. This early view down works out for 12' decks. To make the decks shorter would require some widening of the glass opening/railings. That plays havoc with other angles on it. Even though the stage level itself might be 7' below it and there is a FP painting on the floor, it's not shown as a 7' deck in these instances.
This is something I wrestled with, but in the end I was unable to determine what was actually being portrayed here so just went with 9' decks, since they would fit into a 1,164' Enterprise. Have you been able to extrapolate the exact heights using your vector-software program?
Yes - sort of. It fits well at 12' deck heights. Shorter deck heights can work but it does weird perspective things to the vertical shaft and the widths of the rail openings going down. The FP artist did a pretty good job on 12', IMO.

Mytran wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Actually, the 7' deck is only noticeable in later scenes which would arguably be from the engineering hull and even then, the visibility of the FP floor makes it a weird optical illusion question...
Actually, it seems they scrapped the backdrop painting in later scenes and just went with floorboards! Or is that just the painting seen from a different angle? There don't seem to be enough details present. Either way, the shortened deck height is painfully obvious - I might say not even 7'...

On that last one you can see the FP painting as the lines that lead away from the wall columns and it looks funky!

But, the floorboards answers a question I had a while back and that was if they could seal off the engine room vertically like how they sealed off the room horizontally in TWOK.

I'm going to just call this a containment door/floor to block off radiation from the lower vertical shaft that also happens to have a pattern when closed


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
(Now, if they could just do TMP-R and fix that awful transporter beam effect).
Yeah I just noticed that. Wow, the things we see when we look closely.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
And having the transporter room close to engineering isn't unusual since in TOS ("Mudd's Women") there was one down there and in "The Enemy Within" we know the transporter relies on the engines for its velocity balancing.
And in "Dagger of the Mind". Now that's just great, I had originally promoted a TOS transporter room one deck below the stardrive engine room (to rationalize the Nomad evac scene in "The Changeling"), given up on that and now it comes back full turn.
Ah that's right, I forgot about "Dagger". I'll bet you can put that transporter back in. Could you imagine the turbolift ride with Nomad about to explode?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I think it would work on the Reliant and other ships that lack it's own engineering hull. It would certainly explain why the warp core on the Saratoga in DS9 got hit
That's a fresh, unorthodox and new concept (can't say I dislike it but I'm still a little sceptical). The remaining question is inevitably where does the matter-antimatter reaction take place and where do we place the reactant pods?
If it's like the TMP reactor, probably the M/AM occurs at the bottom and then is fed up the vertical shaft (if we're talking about the Reliant/Saratoga). This of course would give additional meaning to the AM pods getting shaken in "Errand of Mercy" if this setup was on the TOS E!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Or - in case of the TMP Enterprise - does the main reaction occur only in the engineering hull, then the shaft goes up to the saucer, runs horizontally (to feed the impulse engines) before it finally goes down to the ventral sensor dome and feeds the phasers on the way?
That's how I can imagine it - BUT - I'd alter the horizontal shaft significantly to portray the power coming up from the neck and narrow the horizontal rooms and vertical rooms for the saucer.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The only thing that is certain is that we never got a good look at what's below the main engine room level in TWOK. And depending on how much we seriously consider the Constitution Class refit design from TUC, the area below mustn't necessarily reveal a shaft that goes down all the way to the bottom.
For the TUC engine room I kept it where it was and I rotated my engine room 45 degrees so the glass is at the bow and the "port" horizontal power conduit runs straight aft (I omitted the starboard power conduit as it was not visible in any of the scenes, AFAIK.)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
After all, the Reliant's impulse deflection crystal was destroyed but apparently the ship was still able to run with "full impulse power" and apparently working impulse engines, judging by their redish particle exhaust glow?
Unless in TWOK that's not the impulse deflection crystal and it was specifically warp-related?
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Old November 25 2013, 04:23 PM   #879
Robert Comsol
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Location: USS Berlin
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Hmm...from blssdwlf's lack of response regarding the idea of the vertical shaft leading down through the dorsal, I assume he doesn't like the idea.

Mytran wrote: View Post
As for your proposal - again, I only have MS Paint to hand right now, but I think it WOULD fit, even on a 1,000' vessel. The shortened horizontal PTC is not a problem, in fact the more I watch TWOK the more I think a set-accurate build may be in order!
Although it's a poor excuse (especially since I'm not a fan of it) many Trekkers accept the literal interpretation of Franz Joseph regarding the forced perspective TOS engine room cathedral (i.e. elements getting smaller and closer together near the end).

In the case of the TMP engine room FP for the stern of the impulse section we are coming to an end of the horizontal shaft with segments getting closer together which could indicate a termination of the shaft by elements that get subsequently smaller. Of course, the short engineers could present a rationalization problem (unless they have "selected" engineers that can work more efficiently in the stern low ceiling area )

Mytran wrote: View Post
The biggest problem is that the (Engine Room level) long corridor would have to run along the dorsal pylon through the saucer undercut, leaving very little (if any) space for the sideways doors and corridors to open up into!
Thanks for reminding me about this issue. As for the sideways and corridors these could have steps / stairs leading above the saucer undercut, so I wouldn't necessarily regard these as obstacles.

The (center-offset) long blue corridor ahead of the engine room could still fit inside the dorsal pylon, I believe.

Where it could get critical is the square engine room itself and the space for the horizontal intermix shaft.

However, and unlike the TOS Enterprise, the dorsal pylon of the movie Enterprises does not have a rectangular deck layout in the dorsal but one that is more oval in nature.

Check out this screencap from TWOK: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd0504.jpg

We can clearly see that the red separation lines (saucer-engineering hull) in the upper dorsal are curved, therefore the dorsal is wider in the middle than it is at the bow and stern!

While I can't say at this moment how much internal space that would allow, I assume it would have sufficient interior pylon space to both accomodate the shaft and the (impulse) engine room. If it doesn't fit into a ship with an overall length of 305 meters, maybe it will with 355 meters?

Based on the Kimble blueprints and size figures, the dorsal would have the widest width of 5.4 m (305 m O.L.) or 6.3 m (355 m O.L.). Alternately, how high could an impulse engine room be elevated before it compromises the upper deflection crystal?


By the way, what's up with these three different radiation suit (body) colors?
  • Grey - impulse drive section only?
  • White - both impulse and warp drive section?
  • Red - both sections and reactor?
Bob

P.S.

Thanks to Mytran's excellent, imaginative (and entertaining) rationalization I hope we can all agree that there was only one more level about the TMP engine room level.

P.P.S

@ blssdwlf

Is there really any good reason to doubt that the Enterprise in TWOK destroyed the Reliant's impulse deflection crystal? Destroying a sealed end of the intermix shaft also required for warp drive probably has the effect of a temporary warp drive shutdown as seen in TWOK.
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 25 2013 at 05:43 PM. Reason: addition of size figures
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Old November 25 2013, 09:07 PM   #880
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Hmm...from blssdwlf's lack of response regarding the idea of the vertical shaft leading down through the dorsal, I assume he doesn't like the idea.
@Bob - sorry I had to head out on some errands.

The immediate problem is that the width of the vertical shaft decks is 22'6" which is too wide to fit in the neck. Conduit, no problem but not the room surround it.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
By the way, what's up with these three different radiation suit (body) colors?
  • Grey - impulse drive section only?
  • White - both impulse and warp drive section?
  • Red - both sections and reactor?
I'm not following. The rad suits look the same body shade of white to me and the differences you might be seeing are from lighting temperature variations.

As to the red collars - those are trainees.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thanks to Mytran's excellent, imaginative (and entertaining) rationalization I hope we can all agree that there was only one more level about the TMP engine room level.
"one more level about the TMP engine room level" ?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
P.P.S

@ blssdwlf

Is there really any good reason to doubt that the Enterprise in TWOK destroyed the Reliant's impulse deflection crystal? Destroying a sealed end of the intermix shaft also required for warp drive probably has the effect of a temporary warp drive shutdown as seen in TWOK.
I'm doubting that the dome destroyed the "impulse deflection crystal" because:

1. AFAIK, it has never been identified on screen as such for the Enterprise or Reliant.
2. Destroying that dome and the area to the starboard side of it resulted in, "They've damaged the photon-control and the warp drive." Not they've damaged the impulse engine.
3. If the impulse engine was also damaged along with the warp drive, the Reliant withdrawing on battery power would never have gotten them out of visual range from the Enterprise in any reasonable amount of time, IMO.

So, based on what was said and shown in TWOK, all I know is that dome structure is related exclusively to the warp drive in some manner.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:27 AM   #881
drt
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I'm pretty sure there were red radiation suits in TMP (not just the collars). I always thought of them as the damage control folks.

EDIT: just found this on a prop auction site (I guess they were orange, not red)

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/3/...nge_collar.jpg

Last edited by drt; November 26 2013 at 12:43 AM. Reason: added link
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Old November 26 2013, 12:52 AM   #882
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The immediate problem is that the width of the vertical shaft decks is 22'6" which is too wide to fit in the neck. Conduit, no problem but not the room surround it.
You are sure that the lower vertical shaft decks would have a minimal platform width of 22'6" or 6.85 meters?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
By the way, what's up with these three different radiation suit (body) colors?
  • Grey - impulse drive section only?
  • White - both impulse and warp drive section?
  • Red - both sections and reactor?
I'm not following. The rad suits look the same body shade of white to me and the differences you might be seeing are from lighting temperature variations.
The radsuit of the engineer standing next to Decker is grey.

The entire radsuit of the engineer at Spock's funeral (starboard side near the torpedo "mouth") is orange red (thanks drt).

Oh, and I meant to say one more level above the main level.

Regarding the "impulse deflection crystal" I'd say it does look a lot like it's a part of the impulse engine block which is usually is not associated with warp drive.

The onscreen information comes
  • from a guy from the late 20th Century who may not be (yet) that familiar with the proper 23rd Century Starfleet engineer lingo
  • and who leaves us clueless in regard to the interpretation of "photon controls". The destruction of the "crystal" could have damaged the controls of the "photon" torpedo pod or "photon controls" are a component of the impulse drive necessary to channel intermix energy back into the shaft or else.
As we did learn from TMP it didn't require a special intermix formula to have the intermix energy for impulse drive, but it required Spock's arrival and an exact formula to be capable of warp drive.

With that in mind I can imagine the Reliant still used intermix energy to get away on impulse but for warp drive capability the destroyed crystal would have compromised the delicate formula.

Bob
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Old November 26 2013, 01:33 AM   #883
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

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blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The immediate problem is that the width of the vertical shaft decks is 22'6" which is too wide to fit in the neck. Conduit, no problem but not the room surround it.
You are sure that the lower vertical shaft decks would have a minimal platform width of 22'6" or 6.85 meters?
90% certain. That's what the current matchup is at.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
By the way, what's up with these three different radiation suit (body) colors?
  • Grey - impulse drive section only?
  • White - both impulse and warp drive section?
  • Red - both sections and reactor?
I'm not following. The rad suits look the same body shade of white to me and the differences you might be seeing are from lighting temperature variations.
The radsuit of the engineer standing next to Decker is grey.
Ahh. Interesting find.

So we have rad suits that are:

1. White - circle chest - black collar
2. White - circle chest - red collar
3. Grey - circle chest - black collar
4. Orange - circle chest - no collar/orange collar?
5. White - rectangular device on chest - small collar

Have you charted when they appear and where?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The entire radsuit of the engineer at Spock's funeral (starboard side near the torpedo "mouth") is orange red (thanks drt).
Yes sorta - but I didn't count him at first because he was lacking the black collar. The guy in white next to him with a helmet also appears to have a rectangular device on his chest also appears to have a variation of the rad suit.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Regarding the "impulse deflection crystal" I'd say it does look a lot like it's a part of the impulse engine block which is usually is not associated with warp drive.

The onscreen information comes
  • from a guy from the late 20th Century who may not be (yet) that familiar with the proper 23rd Century Starfleet engineer lingo
  • and who leaves us clueless in regard to the interpretation of "photon controls". The destruction of the "crystal" could have damaged the controls of the "photon" torpedo pod or "photon controls" are a component of the impulse drive necessary to channel intermix energy back into the shaft or else.
Joachim was specific about the damage as he was explaining to Khan why they can't fire back. The context for "photon controls" is photon torpedo controls. The warp drive is both main power and phasers which connect back to the TMP Enterprise's phaser cutoff when the warp drive went wonky.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
As we did learn from TMP it didn't require a special intermix formula to have the intermix energy for impulse drive, but it required Spock's arrival and an exact formula to be capable of warp drive.

With that in mind I can imagine the Reliant still used intermix energy to get away on impulse but for warp drive capability the destroyed crystal would have compromised the delicate formula.
The problem still is if that is part the impulse engine, there should be some kind of impulse impairment on the Reliant and we don't see that and they are still able to make use of "full impulse power". Instead, that hit on the dome resulted in the loss of warp drive and it's power advantages.

So you have the right idea, that the destroyed crystal impaired the delicate intermix formula but the name of the dome should be really called the "Warp Deflection Crystal" or "Warp Turbine" and not the "Impulse Deflection Crystal", IMO.
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Old November 26 2013, 07:55 AM   #884
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The immediate problem is that the width of the vertical shaft decks is 22'6" which is too wide to fit in the neck. Conduit, no problem but not the room surround it.
You are sure that the lower vertical shaft decks would have a minimal platform width of 22'6" or 6.85 meters?
90% certain. That's what the current matchup is at.
I'd tend to agree. Although we shouldn't take the setplan as gospel, a quick comparison between the fore/aft engine room and the corridor (which we know to be 8') gives us a measurement between 22'3" and 23'3". The sketch itself is a little inconsistent in places (best to also use the TNG set), but along with Blssdwlf's figure I say that's definitely around the right figure - far too wide to squeeze into the blue strip on the dorsal, unfortunately
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Old November 26 2013, 03:41 PM   #885
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@ blssdwlf

No, I haven't charted the appearance of the differently colored radsuits, I just happened to notice Scotty's assistant in TMP wearing the black radsuit collar (but not the typical body suit). I did notice the guy in the orange-red radsuit earlier in my TWOK torpedo bay examinations, hence that little theory came up.

@ blssdwlf & Mytran

Looks like I am / was beating a dead horse. But now I need to ask some questions, since Mytran stated that we "know" the TMP corridor to be 8' wide.

Did Suwalski's TMP studio set blueprint come with measurements? As you may recall from our TOS discussions I'd been somewhat sceptical whether the turbo lift cab diameter was really 8'.

The movie corridors had always looked narrower to me than the TOS corridors.
Ironically (no pun intended) the shot with Admiral Kirk (Bill Shatner is 5'9" tall?) in TMP suggests that the blue corridor (at its widest above knee level) is just a little wider than Bill Shatner is tall.
I therefore arrived at a corridor width of "only" 1.88 meters or 6'2" (i.e. the width between the outer black corridor lines in the TMP studio set blueprint).

This would yield a distance between the parallel elements of the octagonal frame surrounding the intermix shaft of 2.82 meters or 9'3" approximately.

The descending platforms of the vertical intermix shaft are no wider than the open shaft space plus the transparent aluminium floor panels left and right. Open shaft space + starboard floor panel + port floor panel = 4.23 meters or 13'10" approximately.

With the connecting dorsal pylon's widest width of 5.4 m (305 m O.L.) or 6.3 m (355 m O.L.) there wouldn't seem to be a problem fitting the vertical intermix shaft there instead.

Can you follow my calculations? Please feel free to point out calculating errors.

Bob
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