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Old July 25 2011, 03:05 AM   #391
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
You can see the diagram, TODAY, on a HD screen, on BluRay.

But in 1966, on the best possible color TV set, there was no way you'd have ever seen anything from which you could derive anything CLOSE to the sizing.
Sure, but it's not 1966 - Thermians can get HD video

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
I know, we're looking at it as though this is all gospel, but again, remember, the sick bay monitors in TNG had one of the indicators which showed "insurance remaining." This was never intended to be seen, but it was there.
And that's one of the reasons why I'm not working on the TNG Enterprise

At least we're not enhancing the image
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Old July 25 2011, 03:36 AM   #392
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Some more random images...

A 355m TMP Enterprise...


and Kirk's walk around the Enterprise's engine room in TMP...

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Old July 25 2011, 06:12 AM   #393
Psion
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Very cool ... but I thought the intent was to have the linear intermix chamber line up with the impulse deflection crystal in front of the impulse engines. The darker gray line going up the dorsal was, I thought supposed to house that chamber.

Of course, when you do that, there's a slight problem with that corridor out in front of engineering ....



Or have you already addressed this elsewhere and I've forgotten?
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Old July 25 2011, 06:42 AM   #394
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Psion - I addressed it by scaling up the ship Actually, the cargo bay doesn't fit in 305m either, so it worked out by scaling up.

Remember the path this project is taking is not always going to align with the designer's intent since I'm striving for screen accuracy and we know that the production folks don't always adhere to the designer's wishes...
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Old July 25 2011, 04:55 PM   #395
Redfern
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Forgive my ignorance, but who are these mysterious "Thermians" you have mentioned on more than one occasion? Sounds like a corny sci-fi species noted for extreme body heat.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old July 25 2011, 05:22 PM   #396
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Galaxy Quest, Bill, Galaxy Quest
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Old July 25 2011, 05:27 PM   #397
MGagen
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I support everyone's right to the Enterprise of their imagination.

However, 947' was MJ's intention. Discarding that figure primarily because the hangar deck doesn't seem to fit ignores a more important and better documented full size set that does fit the 947' size: The bridge. At the intended scale, and only at the intended scale, does the turbolift fit into the visible tube at the back of the bridge dome. It seems misplaced to reject the 947' feature because the miniature hangar set (which we're not really sure of the dimensions and configuration of) doesn't fit, while throwing out the obvious and well documented bridge scale cue. At the very least, hanging on to the intended length is not "silly."

Once again, I'm not saying one cannot have a bigger E if one wants it. I'm merely pointing out that staying with MJ's size is not silly or indefensible.

M.
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Old July 25 2011, 05:32 PM   #398
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mgagen - I agree on the 947' but not because of the bridge. There is nothing that ties the bridge to an external feature for scaling purposes. The flight deck you can with the shuttle doors. As far as I can tell, the only set that doesn't fit is the flight deck.
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Old July 25 2011, 05:35 PM   #399
Tallguy
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Thermians are from Galaxy quest. So we too are reconstructing a "real" ship from the "historical documents".

I'd argue that "medical insurance remaining" was intended as a joke (obviously) but "947'" was not. I think they should be given different weight as such.
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Old July 25 2011, 05:43 PM   #400
Psion
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Redfern wrote: View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but who are these mysterious "Thermians" you have mentioned on more than one occasion? Sounds like a corny sci-fi species noted for extreme body heat.

Sincerely,

Bill
As blssdwlf points out, the Thermians are from the movie Galaxy Quest. They had the endearing trait of having no concept of lying. They also didn't understand make-believe, so when they began receiving television signals from Earth, they assumed everything they watched was true. "Gilligan's Island? Those poor people."

When they found their civilization threatened by the evil warlord Sarris, the Thermians turned to an Earth documentary called Galaxy Quest, which depicted humans exploring the galaxy in a massive starship ala Star Trek. Meticulously analyzing the characteristics of the starship Protector, the Thermians reverse-engineered everything in the ship and built a functional duplicate.

The only thing they lacked was a qualified crew to operate it.

So they abducted the show's original actors from a science fiction convention and put them in charge of a real-life, full-sized starship and sent them off to defeat Sarris.

The movie was a parody of Star Trek ... or more correctly, its fandom, and while great fun was made of fans, it was done almost as a tribute, and managed to balance the needs of adventure, parody, and science fiction so well that many Trek fans consider it one of the best Star Trek movies ever produced.
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Old July 25 2011, 07:09 PM   #401
MGagen
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
@Mgagen - I agree on the 947' but not because of the bridge. There is nothing that ties the bridge to an external feature for scaling purposes. The flight deck you can with the shuttle doors. As far as I can tell, the only set that doesn't fit is the flight deck.
This is only the case if you ignore the obvious correlation between the turbo lift and the tube on the exterior of the bridge dome. At the intended scale (947') the bridge set as designed by Jefferies matches the exterior of the bridge on the model as designed by Jefferies, with the turbolift almost perfectly centered in the exterior tube. Some ignore this alignment and claim that the tube on the exterior is not the turbo lift. Why, then, does MJ give us two of them on his Phase II design corresponding to a bridge with two turbolifts?

As I said before, my intention is not the call into question anyone's desire to have a larger Enterprise. Everyone is entitled to the Enterprise of their imagination. I only point out that there are perfectly defensible reasons to support sticking with 947'.

M.
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Old July 25 2011, 07:54 PM   #402
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

No one is suggesting that the 947' figure is indefensible, just that it's not the only possibility. If we assume the flight deck miniature is in fact correct, then the bridge dome cannot be. If we assume the bridge dome is correct, then the flight deck cannot be. Since this project is explicitly intended to explore not was the ship should be but, rather, what the ship turned out to be. Scaling up to fit the flight deck allows for a bridge position that still fits into the external dome allowing the nub to be an extra turbo lift tube (which would make sense to have an extra right there, given how quickly a spare lift shows up). However, holding religiously to 947' means something's gotta give.

I can't see what is gained other than de-railing the thread by arguing over 947' at this point. The premise was established pretty early on.

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Old July 25 2011, 09:52 PM   #403
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

MGagen wrote: View Post
I support everyone's right to the Enterprise of their imagination.

However, 947' was MJ's intention. Discarding that figure primarily because the hangar deck doesn't seem to fit ignores a more important and better documented full size set that does fit the 947' size: The bridge. At the intended scale, and only at the intended scale, does the turbolift fit into the visible tube at the back of the bridge dome. It seems misplaced to reject the 947' feature because the miniature hangar set (which we're not really sure of the dimensions and configuration of) doesn't fit, while throwing out the obvious and well documented bridge scale cue. At the very least, hanging on to the intended length is not "silly."

Once again, I'm not saying one cannot have a bigger E if one wants it. I'm merely pointing out that staying with MJ's size is not silly or indefensible.

M.
The bridge fits perfectly well in my version. And my version is 1067' in length. So I disagree with that comment.



I do agree that there is no one approach that is inherently "right" and another which is "wrong." I personally think that the 947' doesn't work, unless you compromise on the sets. You've got four requirements, and they simply don't match up.

1) The physical appearance of the outside of the ship.
2) The (presumed) scale of the ship.
3) The described layout of the ship.
4) The sets as seen on-screen.

You have to compromise on at least one of those... there is no way around it. You can say that the corridors and rooms have to be lower than seen on-screen. You can say that the exterior shape (and in particular the window locations) need to be adjusted. You can alter the interior arrangement. Or you can alter the scale.

But you have to alter at least one of those.

(And by the way, even then, we have to compromise on a few other issues. There is not enough room in the ship to have 430 individual full-sized cabins, even if there were nothing but the sets we saw on-screen. You have to at least double-up, and frankly, in most cases quadruple up, to fit the full crew into that ship. Doubling up can give you a cruise-liner, but to have a working vessel, most of the crew needs to be four to a cabin.)

This is an argument that gets a whole lot of "absolutist" focus from some folks... ie, they say that "947' is the correct length and you'd better accept it. If you don't, you're WRONG-WRONG-WRONG."

Well, we can't really ask M.J. anymore, but I sincerely doubt he'd have been nearly as dedicated to that number as most of those who defend it tend to be. He gave us a SKETCH... not a fully-realized design (down to the individual structural members, wiring routes, etc). He had ideas... but we know in real life, you have to compromise sometimes, and you choose what's most important to you.

To me, getting the correct outwards appearance and matching the correct inwards appearance elements to that is what matters.

I find the near-religious-ferver that a few people seem to have when discussing the "holy 947' length" to be... well, yes, silly.

Those who don't take it quite that much as an article of religious faith, on the other hand, don't get the same response from me.
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Old July 25 2011, 11:29 PM   #404
Redfern
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Thermians...D'OH!!!

I forgot the name (I must be getting senile) so I failed to make the reference to what some people consider the most sublime Trek parody ever.

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old July 26 2011, 01:51 PM   #405
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

MGagen wrote: View Post
This is only the case if you ignore the obvious correlation between the turbo lift and the tube on the exterior of the bridge dome. At the intended scale (947') the bridge set as designed by Jefferies matches the exterior of the bridge on the model as designed by Jefferies, with the turbolift almost perfectly centered in the exterior tube. Some ignore this alignment and claim that the tube on the exterior is not the turbo lift. Why, then, does MJ give us two of them on his Phase II design corresponding to a bridge with two turbolifts?
That correlation for the turbolift location(s) only works if there was a consistency to it. Since you referenced Phase II, I'll reference the TOS movies. One of the problems I have with that rear nub (TOS) and the top two nubs (TMP model) being the turbolift location is that interior-wise the lift(s) moved around in TOS and the TOS movies but the exterior locations didn't move.

Let's pretend the main viewer in TOS is aimed straight ahead on the ship like it is in the Movies and presumably Phase II. The turbolift location in "The Cage" is 36 degrees off center. But in "WNHMGB" it shifts back to 18 degrees off center. Then from Season 1 onwards, it appears to be back to 36 degrees off center.

In the TOS movies, the twin turbolift locations mirror each other at what appears to be 36 degrees off center in the first 3 movies but by "The Undiscovered Country" eventually end up at 90 degrees. Yet the external structure doesn't change.

That plus the lack of other external matching internal features make it hard for me to argue that the bridge can be used for establishing the ship's scale, IMHO.
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