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Old July 8 2011, 03:03 PM   #346
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@All - Good finds on all the links.

I'm leaning towards the very tall ceiling after looking at the two screenshots. In the middle of the ceiling would be lights and framework that is barely out of shot. (Actually, we do see a piece of equipment, perhaps a spotlight, angled in the WNMHGB shot.) Above that would be the sensor gear in the above. In all likelihood it wouldn't be a window.

I don't have a problem for the framework to come down a bit by the time of TMP as more gear is put in above the bridge

I'm quite willing to fudge the layout if it makes sense to do so. My "Thermian" procedure goes like this:

1. Make it screen accurate if it is visible, even if it does not match the Designer's Intent.
2. If I had to guess (because it was never shown) then it would need to match the context of the series as much as possible.
3. If I had to fudge (example: curvature of the hallway) make the change as minimal as possible. (example: I kept some of the curve in my secondary hull layout. But for the saucer, I recognize that the curve would change depending on how far out the hallway would be from the center so fudge )

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Old July 10 2011, 05:13 PM   #347
circusdog
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Where did the inspiration for this come from? The indentation doesn't seem to be consistent with TOS. Is it a remastered feature?
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Old July 10 2011, 07:18 PM   #348
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

circusdog wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Where did the inspiration for this come from? The indentation doesn't seem to be consistent with TOS. Is it a remastered feature?
Nope, the only place I've seen anything like that is in Deg3D's version. Just call this "artistic license."
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Old July 10 2011, 07:23 PM   #349
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
One final thought. If the dome were truly a window, then it might appear black from the inside, as CLB described. Except that in the Trek universe (even TOS) this never happens - every time they look out of a window from a fully lit room, loads of stars are visible! Must be that futuristic Transparency they use...
Ummm... maybe I'm missing something, but I can't recall any times that we saw out of a WINDOW (as opposed to seeing a viewscreen) where we could see stars, from the character's perspective, in TOS.

The Enterprise's windows were only shown a couple of times. Everything else ever seen was on a viewscreen... and was almost certainly a computer-rendered image based upon sensor returns rather than a "direct view out the window."

Is there some "window shot" in TOS that I'm missing?
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Old July 10 2011, 07:42 PM   #350
Chemahkuu
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Is there some "window shot" in TOS that I'm missing?
No. The bridge dome is shown up close in the original and remastered episodes, no window, just a plain hull all the way around. The dissolve shot on the top dome from The Cage is the only thing remotely like that. Me thinks the poster has seen a little too much Abrams.
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Old July 10 2011, 08:38 PM   #351
TIN_MAN
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Well, there was that scene in "The Mark of Gideon" where we see what appears to be an actual "window"? Then there’s also the shuttle observation deck scene from "The Conscience of the King", but that probably doesn't count since the "window" looking out doesn't match up with any corresponding detail on the outside of the ship?
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Old July 10 2011, 08:48 PM   #352
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
...


The Enterprise's windows were only shown a couple of times. Everything else ever seen was on a viewscreen... and was almost certainly a computer-rendered image based upon sensor returns rather than a "direct view out the window."

Is there some "window shot" in TOS that I'm missing?
In "Conscience of the King" Kirk and Lenore are in the observation deck over the flight deck and there are two windows looking out to the stars. It's on the opposite side of the windows over the flight deck which would be the outer hull. Now, if you want to ID that as a view screen, that's your business, but if they are view screens, then why are they set so far into the wall and why have two of them side-by-side? I'm convinced they are actually windows and not view screens.

There's also "The Mark of Gideon" but I'm not sure that business counts as it wasn't really the Enterprise, but rather, a construct built by the aliens to trick Kirk.

So, yeah, there's windows. But if you're talking about the Bridge view screen, then no, that was just a monitor.

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Old July 10 2011, 10:31 PM   #353
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

I think the MOG window can be allowed, since it showed Kirk what he expected to see (i.e. stars, at least at first). This (in my mind, anyway) is backed up by the windows in COK, through which blatant stars are seen.

BTW, I do like that Carrara shot. Since we never saw the ceiling at such, there's no reaosn to disallow it at all either, and it makes a nice bridge (if you'll pardon the pun) between TOS and TMP

Last edited by Mytran; July 10 2011 at 10:58 PM.
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Old July 11 2011, 02:37 AM   #354
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

circusdog wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Where did the inspiration for this come from? The indentation doesn't seem to be consistent with TOS. Is it a remastered feature?
@circusdog - Good question

If you are referring to Indention A then:

The original inspiration comes from the idea of adding plates that would mount flush to the back that would slide around or fold out to "transform" between different configurations.

If you are referring to Indention B then they came from visually confirming the "duck tape" in the series footage from the Smithsonian reference shots I had found via google.

Just an FYI, I am NOT using any new-FX shots for reference.

I've included below some of my references and a close-up of impulse area on my Work In Progress:

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Old July 11 2011, 03:13 AM   #355
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Is there some "window shot" in TOS that I'm missing?
@Cary L Brown - a few As the guys have pointed out, there are the two observation deck windows from "The Conscience of the King" and the window from "The Mark of Gideon" which I count as I agree with Mytran that the outside is what Kirk expected to see.

(Correction)There is also possibly an early one from "The Cage/The Menagerie" from Pike's quarters that was made into a window in TOS-R but in the original version it appears as a green curved panel. (/Correction)

And there has been suggestion that Kirk's quarters in "Mudd's Women" also featured windows but I'm not so sure I can see any stars there. I've included in the reference images below a shot of Kirk's quarters from "The Enemy Within" but the window either has it's shutter down or it isn't a window at all but some wall shelf or something...


Last edited by blssdwlf; July 11 2011 at 06:33 AM.
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Old July 11 2011, 05:53 AM   #356
Shaw
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
There is also an early one from "The Cage/The Menagerie" from Pike's quarters. It appears to suggest that his quarters or that part of the ship was very very thin hulled.
You're talking about TOS-R, in TOS you couldn't see out side the ship.
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Old July 11 2011, 06:29 AM   #357
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Good catch, Shaw. Updated reference image above. Thanks!
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Old July 11 2011, 07:33 AM   #358
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
a few As the guys have pointed out, there are the two observation deck windows from "The Conscience of the King" and the window from "The Mark of Gideon" which I count as I agree with Mytran that the outside is what Kirk expected to see.
Well, go back to my original comment, and I said "except for those two"... or something close to that, anyway. Those are the only two I know of... well, those two and the "Cage" dome shot.
There is also possibly an early one from "The Cage/The Menagerie" from Pike's quarters that was made into a window in TOS-R but in the original version it appears as a green curved panel.
Yeah, that wasn't a window... for the simple reason that there is noplace on the ship where there could be a windowed wall of exactly that shape. If you're dedicated to the idea of accepting TOS(r) as official, well... let's just call it a high-definition holographical display... which might just as well have been showing a landscape outside of Tucson or a view out a naval vessel's porthole. (Which, for the record, is something I expect every cabin would have... something to avoid the mental issues of being locked up in a cramped tin can for years on end.)
And there has been suggestion that Kirk's quarters in "Mudd's Women" also featured windows but I'm not so sure I can see any stars there. I've included in the reference images below a shot of Kirk's quarters from "The Enemy Within" but the window either has it's shutter down or it isn't a window at all but some wall shelf or something...
I've heard a few people talk about those being windows, but again, I see nothing to indicate those as being windows at all. They COULD be "displays" but they really look more like shallow bookshelves, don't they?

Also, remember, we know that Kirk's cabin is on Deck 5. And we know that there is no way that there could be any window on deck 5, much less one with that angle on it ( since the exterior hull at Deck 5 is a very, very shallow angle in the opposite direction, after all!).

So... we have two windows, plus the "Cage" dome shot. Both window shots are rectangular windows, and only one can be seen out of. And we don't really know just how bright the rooms are supposed to be where these shots are taken, do we?

In terms of the landing bay's observation gallery... I'd fully expect the lights to be dimmed, if not totally off, when Kirk is taking his conquest on her "tour." It's worth noting that there ARE two windows in "approximately" the correct spot in the model...

Since I don't feel like doing any new renders or so forth right now, I'll just toss out a shot of my model I've already created, which just happens to very effectively show the location of these two rectangular windows relative to the hangar deck.



And I expect that the window we see in "Gideon" is in the dorsal... probably the starboard side (port shown here, by the way), second row from the top, near the aft edge of the dorsal:


Last edited by Cary L. Brown; July 11 2011 at 07:43 AM. Reason: Pasted the wrong image... waaay to big for the post!
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Old July 11 2011, 09:51 AM   #359
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Cary L Brown - please note I had corrected my reference to The Menagerie after Shaw's comment.

I made a mistake in including a shot which I had not had time to verify. I am NOT using any references from the new FX aka TOS-R for this project so sorry for the confusion.

I had included the crew quarters references as "possibles" for completeness, but agree that there are only two actual scenes where the crew look out the windows to see stars ("Mark of Gideon" and "The Conscience of the King").

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
..for the simple reason that there is noplace on the ship where there could be a windowed wall of exactly that shape.
Then again, that's the same reason why there are no window matches to "The Conscience of the King". The windows at the back of the secondary hull are rectangular when they need to be square to match up. For the purposes of my project, these windows are there but normally shuttered and thus blended into the hull.

The "Mark of Gideon" could be matched up to the curve of the secondary hull, but again it might go to a window not normally visible in external shots when shuttered.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Also, remember, we know that Kirk's cabin is on Deck 5. And we know that there is no way that there could be any window on deck 5, much less one with that angle on it ( since the exterior hull at Deck 5 is a very, very shallow angle in the opposite direction, after all!).
Kirk's cabin before moving to Deck 5 was on Deck 12 ("Mudd's Women"). I'm only mentioning them as possible windows since they were mentioned by others but I'm not convinced of it as noted above.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
So... we have two windows, plus the "Cage" dome shot. Both window shots are rectangular windows, and only one can be seen out of. And we don't really know just how bright the rooms are supposed to be where these shots are taken, do we?
At this point, I am not considering "The Cage" dome shot a window at all since it appears to be just the Talosian-version of story-telling


Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post

And I expect that the window we see in "Gideon" is in the dorsal... probably the starboard side (port shown here, by the way), second row from the top, near the aft edge of the dorsal:

I don't think it would work for the neck as the scene shows a curvature to the wall suggesting somewhere in the secondary hull while the neck is vertical. (You are looking at the posted reference shots, right?)
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Old July 11 2011, 02:05 PM   #360
circusdog
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Location: Olney, MD, US, Earth, Sol System
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
@circusdog - Good question

If you are referring to Indention A then:

The original inspiration comes from the idea of adding plates that would mount flush to the back that would slide around or fold out to "transform" between different configurations.
Yes, understood.
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If you are referring to Indention B then they came from visually confirming the "duck tape" in the series footage from the Smithsonian reference shots I had found via google.
This also. Thanks for the Smithsonian pic. The "duck tape" explains why I didn't see an indentation on the restoration pic I found of the impulse drive:

BTW, the two outside holes had screw-eyes in them for suspending the model by wires, edited out in the films.
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