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Old November 14 2013, 04:52 PM   #811
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Blssdwlf, yes that is pretty much what I had been thinking as well. Nice diagram though, thanks! It's a shame that Drexfiles has gone down, I never got around to saving the hi-res images of the TMP cgi model. Aside from http://archive.is/46Qg, which only has the low-res images, does anyone know where I could get hold of the hi-res versions?
Sent you a PM

Mytran wrote: View Post
Incidentally, a lot of the larger images I find on the internet have the airlock positioned way too high which is just wierd - anyone watching the film could tell that the dock needs to be more or less level with the shuttlebay!
I think alot of the fan/3rd party images do try to move the windows/airlock around which is why I like the one from Drexfiles as it is the CG TMP Enterprise. It is interesting that Probert had put the airlock slightly above the flight deck necessitating a ramp.

Mytran wrote: View Post
An additional point your diagram has highlighted, with regard to potentially moving the Recreation Deck to below the Cargo Deck - it certainly could not go between the windows, as that spot it now taken up by the engine core! Ah well, maybe further back?
Hmm - that's an interesting idea. Will look into that.

Mytran wrote: View Post
That piece of footage was actually reused from TMP, and as such bears NO resemblance to the torpedo deck exterior! As a matter of fact, it's not a perfect match for the Engineering Hull either, as the windows are too close to the airlock compared to the full scale model. Time for some more shutter-able windows maybe?
Hehehe yeah, more shutter-able windows

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The major reason for displacing the intermix shaft towards the stern is obviously the blue corridor apparently near the bow in TMP (Andrew Probert hated it because it contradicted the cross-section drawing he did and which Kimble used for the cutaway poster).

But starting near the engine room control console I counted what look like 13 horizontal shaft elements. Assuming elements have the same length / width how long would the horizontal shaft become before it splits to feed the nacelles?!?
I just did a test with 13 elements on my shifted to stern set and luckily enough it works out to the right length I have to the split. I'll put up a graphic tonight.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If that would relocate the shaft where Probert envisioned it to be, I'd rather go with that and pretend it's a viewscreen instead (showing a blue corridor) - especially since it apparently doesn't exist anymore by the time of ST II.
Not really. That's a shot of a corner of the engine room which existed in TMP. You can see the edge of the door frame here and the door on the left here. The existence of this corner door in both TMP and TWOK does not negate the existence of the blue corridor in TWOK. We know the foyer still exists and it appears that the corridor is still there too in TWOK.


Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The way the engineering set was built though, there would NEVER have been sufficient room to align it to Probert's original cutaway - even without the "long corridor" painted backdrop, the short corridor would still poke out of the front of the ship.
Agreed.



Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The exterior number "5" indicates Docking Port 5 and that's the number we see overhead in the interior in TMP. However, I find myself unable to explain this:

TANNOY VOICE: Cargo bay to launch crew. Travel pod is now available at dock six. (?!?!?)
A similarly timed arrival on the opposite side of the ship, maybe?
That makes the most sense. At the time there were other vehicles coming and going so it is very possible that it's another travel pod.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If there were a viewscreen it would already include the short corridor. But I realize that the shaft for any turbo lift would remain a major riddle to solve (even in blssdwlf's alternate proposal, the turboshaft would still run through the blue corridor, I'm afraid).
I'm not seeing the riddle. The blue corridor is not on the centerline of the ship but shifted over to the starboard side. A set of turboshafts can run slightly port side and go straight up the neck. The tricky part though has always been the torpedo bays.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'd assume that we do not have the interior volume to have two parallel torpedo bays but only one, thus the numbers there indicate the docking port "at the torpedo bay", i.e. torpedo bay [docking port] 1 (starboard) and 2 (port).

With the one on the port side of the engineering hull being DP 5 (TMP), I believe the one on the starboard side would be DP 4.

This would probably leave DP 6 to be one of the airlock and docking ports at the saucer's underside. Of course, it couldn't dock anything bigger than a travel pod.
Wait a sec - since they re-used external docking port 5 for both the torpedo airlock and engineering airlock I'm not sure we can tell what the numbers would be for the other ports. It'll be another one of those great mysteries. We could theorize that docking port 5 was re-numbered from engineering to the torpedo airlock between TMP and TWOK...
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Old November 14 2013, 10:55 PM   #812
Robert Comsol
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Location: shore leave in La Baule, France
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I'm not seeing the riddle. The blue corridor is not on the centerline of the ship but shifted over to the starboard side. A set of turboshafts can run slightly port side and go straight up the neck. The tricky part though has always been the torpedo bays.
Yes, according to the stage plan they apparently left some space on the port side to accomodate a turbo shaft there. Not much, but better than nothing.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Wait a sec - since they re-used external docking port 5 for both the torpedo airlock and engineering airlock I'm not sure we can tell what the numbers would be for the other ports. It'll be another one of those great mysteries. We could theorize that docking port 5 was re-numbered from engineering to the torpedo airlock between TMP and TWOK...
That doesn't really look like the lesser of two evils. We'd then have to make up our minds whether we really believe in two parallel torpedo bays.
No, wait. Make that four torpedo bays...

Bob
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Old November 15 2013, 01:34 AM   #813
kennysmith
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Location: sacramento ca
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

just remember this it is the ncc 1701 TOS enterprise from the tv show from the 1966 to 1969 only.
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Old November 15 2013, 02:24 AM   #814
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Here is the internals with the horizontal power shaft with the 13 elements matched. Interestingly, it works out for the 355m version but it comes up short for the 305m version (after moving the engine room forward)...

Click image to enlarge.
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Old November 15 2013, 08:17 AM   #815
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Thanks for the PM Blssdwlf, it is very much appreciated. It's a shame that Drexler never released HD versions of these images, but now armed with the knowledge of what he actually did give us, I've been able to track down an alternative online source for Drexler's images:

http://trekazoid.wordpress.com/categ...itution-class/

Drexler's refit images are about halfway down. There's lots of other nice images on the page too, although I haven't checked their on-screen accuracy yet.

As a colourful alternative, try http://startreklives.wordpress.com/2...cc-1701-refit/

About a quarter of the way down, there are some VERY LARGE images of the refit. The airlock appears to be in about the same position as Drexler's and if the rest of the form is similarly accurate, this could be a great resource.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
That doesn't really look like the lesser of two evils. We'd then have to make up our minds whether we really believe in two parallel torpedo bays.
No, wait. Make that four torpedo bays...
Regarding the mysterious 3rd and 4th torpedo bays, its probably time to dust of this old article on the subject:
http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html

It is interesting to see that 13 segments will not fit properly within the 1,000' Enterprise. Probert seems to have solved this problem by making the first two horizontal sections double-length.
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Old November 15 2013, 10:44 AM   #816
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Thanks blssdwlf for the graphic visualization.

Although not illustrated, I'm confident that the relocated-towards-the-stern intermix shaft would also fit nicely into the 1000' / 305m version.
Additionally, it could explain why the "back wall " of the torpedo bay is slightly bent inwards (to make space for the still vertical intermix shaft behind).
And the "photon exhaust" at the stern of the connecting dorsal could serve as a heat dissipator for the shaft.

This would also facilitate the accomodation of the vertical turbo shaft according to the turbo lift car schematic. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the turbo shafts in the engineering hull "list" towards the port side. Amazing! So the off center blue corridor ahead of the engine room seems to have been aligned off-center-axis on purpose to create the necessary turbo shaft space.

While it's nice to see that the set designers probably payed attention to these details, it incredibly sucks how they ignored Andrew Probert's layout.

Mytran wrote: View Post
VERY colorful! What's up with the hump at the stern of the nacelle?

Mytran wrote: View Post
Regarding the mysterious 3rd and 4th torpedo bays, its probably time to dust of this old article on the subject:
http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html
I reread the article prior to posting. While you could probably squeeze in a starboard torpedo bay # 2 (without the loading mechanism which would have to be closer to the port side and off the center axis), there's no way you'd have additional torpedo bays 3 and 4 at this location (unless these were somehow compartments that revolve like a centrifuge near this area).

I slept the night over it and here is my proposal for rationalization: These panels (1, 2, 3 and 4) are actually loading indicators of some kind. When Kirk and company enter the ship torpedo # 1 is in the starboard, torpedo # 2 in the port firing tube. Just prior to the Mutara battle, they had additionally loaded torpedo # 3 and we seem them loading torpedo # 4 into the [port] tube (thus, the Enterprise has four torpedos prepped for the encounter with the Reliant).

Fact is that after the torpedo bay (and its loading mechanism) had been rendered inoperational, Enterprise fired two torpedos from the starboard launcher, first one two destroy the Reliant's launcher pod, second to destroy the port side nacelle. Therefore, these torpedos already had to be inside the launching tubes!

Good news coming from that would be that we have a much better chronological system for the docking ports (and airlocks):
  • Docking Port and Airlock 1 - engineering hull starboard side
  • Docking Port 2 (only!) - torpedo bay starboard side
  • Docking Port 3 (only) - command bridge
  • Docking Port and Airlock 4 - torpedo bay port side (apparently there is no airlock on the starboard side, because there is only one airlock control panel on the port side in TWOK)
  • Docking Port 5 (only) - engineering hull port side (as seen in TMP)
  • Docking Port (and Airlock?) 6 - starboard underside saucer
  • Docking Port and Airlock 7 - port underside saucer (as seen in TMP).
(The Official TMP Blueprints clearly indicate these two hatches at the saucer's underside as "docking port - saucer")

Assuming we take the TMP recyled shot ("Docking Port 5") in TWOK serious (as suggested by blssdwlf), the docking port numbers could have changed into something like this by the time of TWOK: 1 - bridge / 2 - starboard saucer / 3 - port saucer / 4 - starboard torpedo bay / 5 - port torpedo bay / 6 - starboard engineering hull / 7 - port engineering hull

Anyway, as a practical result we'd have two airlocks on each side of the ship, one at the engineering hull and one at the saucer.

However, assuming that the torpedo loading crane would be on the center axis of the ship, the size of the set would suggest that we are looking at an Enterprise not larger than 1000' or 305m, IMHO.

Bob

P.S.
I think there is a possible explanation where the docking port confusion in TMP (travel pod docked at DP 5, intercom however says DP 6) might come from. Earlier on the orbital complex we saw an "interior" DP 6 behind Scotty. However, the travel pod departed from "exterior" DP 5 (same set of doors like the one used for the Enterprise). Somebody may not have noticed that for the "interior" of the Enterprise they changed the "interior" orbital complex from a "6" to a "5" to match the exterior door. Possible someone expected they did it the other way round (i.e. change the writing on the exterior door from "5" to "6").
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 15 2013 at 01:39 PM.
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Old November 15 2013, 02:32 PM   #817
Mytran
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Location: North Wales
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Although not illustrated, I'm confident that the relocated-towards-the-stern intermix shaft would also fit nicely into the 1000' / 305m version.
I've also no doubt it would fit (and most of the long corridor too) but the engineering shaft would still intersect with the "arboretum" windows - although to be honest I've no problem rationalising those as an engineering space - the blue glow is perhaps a by-product of the constant M/AM reaction, and certainly matches the colour of the warp nacelles. The biggest problem with the 1000' ship is that the Cargo Deck is way too large for it - you would have to reduce the width at the very least, possibly the length a bit too. It's a real pain to be honest (given how short the cargo bay scene was) but since the creators wanted to show a REALLY big OPEN space, we are stuck with it

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This would also facilitate the accommodation of the vertical turbo shaft according to the turbo lift car schematic. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the turbo shafts in the engineering hull "list" towards the port side. Amazing! So the off center blue corridor ahead of the engine room seems to have been aligned off-center-axis on purpose to create the necessary turbo shaft space.
That turbolift schematic is a nightmare! If it is indeed an accurate diagram of the turbolift paths throughout the ship, there would be barely any space for corridors, let alone anything else! What's more it is not even consistent with the very scene it follows - where's the Cargo Deck?! But it also eliminates the "official" location of the Rec Deck, so maybe I shouldn't be so hard

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I slept the night over it and here is my proposal for rationalization: These panels (1, 2, 3 and 4) are actually loading indicators of some kind. When Kirk and company enter the ship torpedo # 1 is in the starboard, torpedo # 2 in the port firing tube. Just prior to the Mutara battle, they had additionally loaded torpedo # 3 and we seem them loading torpedo # 4 into the [port] tube (thus, the Enterprise has four torpedos prepped for the encounter with the Reliant).
A good explanation (and the docking set up). Does that mean that there were already some torpedos in the tubes during Spock's funeral though?
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Old November 15 2013, 03:11 PM   #818
Robert Comsol
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Location: shore leave in La Baule, France
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Although not illustrated, I'm confident that the relocated-towards-the-stern intermix shaft would also fit nicely into the 1000' / 305m version.
I've also no doubt it would fit (and most of the long corridor too) but the engineering shaft would still intersect with the "arboretum" windows - although to be honest I've no problem rationalising those as an engineering space - the blue glow is perhaps a by-product of the constant M/AM reaction, and certainly matches the colour of the warp nacelles.
Instead of a large botanical area we could just have two botanical alleys in the outer area (admittedly I'd still feel extremely bad about displacing Mr. and Ms. Probert which are the figures in Mr. Kimble's beautiful cutaway painting ). The blue light could be emanating from the reactor area behind a transparent wall panel (not too dissimilar from the TOS Season Three rec room, although I don't believe it's down below).

Mytran wrote: View Post
The biggest problem with the 1000' ship is that the Cargo Deck is way too large for it - you would have to reduce the width at the very least, possibly the length a bit too. It's a real pain to be honest (given how short the cargo bay scene was) but since the creators wanted to show a REALLY big OPEN space, we are stuck with it
Possibly a visual illusion we get from the camera lenses they utilized in this scene.
I'd prefer to use the diameter of the docking port doors, constantly seen with actors standing next to these, as a size indicator.

Mytran wrote: View Post
That turbolift schematic is a nightmare! ... But it also eliminates the "official" location of the Rec Deck, so maybe I shouldn't be so hard
Most of it is a nightmare, I agree (where is the diagonal main turbo shaft established for the TOS Enterprise? ). But the elimination of the Rec Deck in the saucer is a nice side effect, you really shouldn't be so hard.

Mytran wrote: View Post
A good explanation (and the docking set up). Does that mean that there were already some torpedos in the tubes during Spock's funeral though?
Thanks. Actually I just came back to fix my earlier statement but you beat me to it (happens rather often, lately).

Because of the funeral scene, these wouldn't be torpedos # 1 and so on but merely torpedos having been placed in "launch" position and/or pad # 1,# 2 and so on. IIRC, the Enterprise fired three photon torpedos at the Reliant (four had been loaded). Thus, one had remained in "launch" position and/or pad # 1" when Spock's photon torpedo coffin was lowered and loaded into the "2" position.

It's interesting to notice that for each casing lowered the corresponding number showed up on the delivery mechanism.

In the scene in ST III we don't get to see the torpedo bay numbers. Can't say I'm unhappy about that. If this bay were showing the numbers 3 and 4 I'd have difficulties coming up with a feasible rationalization.

By the way, the TMP engine room footage looks a bit confusing. Kirk arrives on the upper level, the clear elevator seems to be on the right side. The wall above the horizontal shaft just shows a small panel with a crewman next to it.

In a later camera shot Admiral Kirk has shifted to the opposite starboard side and - - the small panel has transformed into a large wall display with green lights.

I should also note that when Scotty and Kirk run to what seems the nearest turbo lift to the transporter room they turn starboard although - as we'd discovered - the turbo lift should be on the port side. Probably Scotty was trying to catch up with Kirk yelling "turbo lift is on the port side, admiral!"

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 15 2013 at 03:22 PM.
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Old November 15 2013, 03:23 PM   #819
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Thanks for the PM Blssdwlf, it is very much appreciated. It's a shame that Drexler never released HD versions of these images, but now armed with the knowledge of what he actually did give us, I've been able to track down an alternative online source for Drexler's images:
Thanks Mytran - I'll check them out!

Mytran wrote: View Post
It is interesting to see that 13 segments will not fit properly within the 1,000' Enterprise. Probert seems to have solved this problem by making the first two horizontal sections double-length.
Interesting. If that's the case, then all the elements aft of the double-length would be shorter. Since the production folks built the horizontal elements this long, the actual horizontal elements if halved would be crazy short and not go very far...

I think I'll keep my build at the onscreen horizontal length and the horizontal elements all equal length

But I do agree that to make the set work with Probert's 1000' Enterprise the horizontal elements would need to be lengthened. If I were to keep it screen accurate, I'd suggest making the elements past the first two elements stretch out.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thanks blssdwlf for the graphic visualization.

Although not illustrated, I'm confident that the relocated-towards-the-stern intermix shaft would also fit nicely into the 1000' / 305m version.
If you mean the "engine room moved back like in the 355m version" fitting in the 1000' version then the vert+horiz shafts would fit but the forward corridors would not as it sticks out the front.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Additionally, it could explain why the "back wall " of the torpedo bay is slightly bent inwards (to make space for the still vertical intermix shaft behind).
And the "photon exhaust" at the stern of the connecting dorsal could serve as a heat dissipator for the shaft.
Yes - that's kinda what I've been thinking about as well.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This would also facilitate the accomodation of the vertical turbo shaft according to the turbo lift car schematic. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the turbo shafts in the engineering hull "list" towards the port side. Amazing! So the off center blue corridor ahead of the engine room seems to have been aligned off-center-axis on purpose to create the necessary turbo shaft space.
It definitely is an interesting detail although that schematic would suggest the turbo lift cars end up in the impulse/warp crystal deflector assembly area and somewhere in the shuttle bay which I can't see physically happening

Mytran wrote: View Post
Regarding the mysterious 3rd and 4th torpedo bays, its probably time to dust of this old article on the subject:
http://www.trekplace.com/article01.html
Yeah - another great mystery!

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, assuming that the torpedo loading crane would be on the center axis of the ship, the size of the set would suggest that we are looking at an Enterprise not larger than 1000' or 305m, IMHO.
Why would that be?

Mytran wrote: View Post
A good explanation (and the docking set up). Does that mean that there were already some torpedos in the tubes during Spock's funeral though?
It's very possible, although I'd imagine that they would unload the tubes once they were no longer at Red Alert.
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Old November 15 2013, 03:42 PM   #820
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Although not illustrated, I'm confident that the relocated-towards-the-stern intermix shaft would also fit nicely into the 1000' / 305m version.
I've also no doubt it would fit (and most of the long corridor too) but the engineering shaft would still intersect with the "arboretum" windows - although to be honest I've no problem rationalising those as an engineering space - the blue glow is perhaps a by-product of the constant M/AM reaction, and certainly matches the colour of the warp nacelles.
Instead of a large botanical area we could just have two botanical alleys in the outer area (admittedly I'd still feel extremely bad about displacing Mr. and Ms. Probert which are the figures in Mr. Kimble's beautiful cutaway painting ). The blue light could be emanating from the reactor area behind a transparent wall panel (not too dissimilar from the TOS Season Three rec room, although I don't believe it's down below).
I dunno. The idea of being bathed in delta radiation doesn't sound appealing Based on the lack of close-ups of the windows I'm favoring them as m/am radiation panels or exhausts and that section as part of engineering.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Possibly a visual illusion we get from the camera lenses they utilized in this scene.
I'd prefer to use the diameter of the docking port doors, constantly seen with actors standing next to these, as a size indicator.
I don't think you can escape the problem that the cargo bay is too wide for the interior of a 1000' hull. The side cargo pods extend out beyond the width of the hull and there are other small details that make the interior poke out.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
It's interesting to notice that for each casing lowered the corresponding number showed up on the delivery mechanism.
That makes sense that the "2" on the loading arm is to let us know this is Bay 2.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In the scene in ST III we don't get to see the torpedo bay numbers. Can't say I'm unhappy about that. If this bay were showing the numbers 3 and 4 I'd have difficulties coming up with a feasible rationalization.
Perhaps Bay 4 was blown up by Khan's phaser hit in TWOK?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
By the way, the TMP engine room footage looks a bit confusing. Kirk arrives on the upper level, the clear elevator seems to be on the right side. The wall above the horizontal shaft just shows a small panel with a crewman next to it.

In a later camera shot Admiral Kirk has shifted to the opposite starboard side and - - the small panel has transformed into a large wall display with green lights.
Kirk takes a scenic tour I actually mapped out his path based on what we see on screen and the landmarks do match up.

Click to enlarge.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:10 AM   #821
kennysmith
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

could you please try to do this for the TOS star ship for me please?, i need to talk with you in private e-mail please ok.
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Old November 16 2013, 01:49 AM   #822
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If you mean the "engine room moved back like in the 355m version" fitting in the 1000' version then the vert+horiz shafts would fit but the forward corridors would not as it sticks out the front.
Can we be really sure about that? The stage plan shows us where the corridor actually ended (it did end there with horizontal wall panels in the TWOK scene where the cadets are running out of the engine room). What we saw in TMP was a fake extension with a forced perspective painting.

Unless I'm mistaken you already shortened the outer corridor segments in your visualizations. Looks like we could take some (more) artistic license here if necessary.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, assuming that the torpedo loading crane would be on the center axis of the ship, the size of the set would suggest that we are looking at an Enterprise not larger than 1000' or 305m, IMHO.
Why would that be?
The way it looks to me the entire torpedo section is not that much wider than the command bridge, so it's impossible to have two parallel torpedo bays, therefore we can / should assume that the loading crane and tube are in the center of the dorsal. From there it's not that far to the actual outer docking port doors behind the airlock doors.
I assume at 305m the match would be good, I assume that at 355m the loading crane / tube would shift off-center towards the port side.

But, again, I'd prefer the diameter of the docking port doors to arrive at the actual ship's length.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The idea of being bathed in delta radiation doesn't sound appealing Based on the lack of close-ups of the windows I'm favoring them as m/am radiation panels or exhausts and that section as part of engineering.
Obviously there'd be sufficient radiation shielding just as the intermix shaft is shielded well enough, so that you don't need to put on a radiation protective suit and helmet each time you enter the engine room.
IMHO, the VFX in motion clearly suggest that this section contains very heterogenously formed contents which are compatible with botanic items. It's bad we don't have any closeups of that particular model section but according to the eye witnesses they did put a botany section there.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
That makes sense that the "2" on the loading arm is to let us know this is Bay 2.
If the "2" on the loading arm is a torpedo bay indicator it's rather redundant because you'd have the much bigger sign (in the same line of sight!) at the stern of the section.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Perhaps Bay 4 was blown up by Khan's phaser hit in TWOK?
The one that was blown up was the same through which Kirk and company entered the ship. If we are to assume the numbers really do indicate bays this would then be Bay 2.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Kirk takes a scenic tour I actually mapped out his path based on what we see on screen and the landmarks do match up.
Great visualization! But the landmarks do not match up. In Picture 2 we can clearly see the glass elevator rails to the right. So the guy there is standing next to a small panel which becomes a large black panel with the green indicators (Pictures 4 and 5) only seconds later.

Bob
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Old November 16 2013, 02:26 AM   #823
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If you mean the "engine room moved back like in the 355m version" fitting in the 1000' version then the vert+horiz shafts would fit but the forward corridors would not as it sticks out the front.
Can we be really sure about that? The stage plan shows us where the corridor actually ended (it did end there with horizontal wall panels in the TWOK scene where the cadets are running out of the engine room). What we saw in TMP was a fake extension with a forced perspective painting.
Yes we can because that's what was shown.

The problem here is that you want to remove the forced perspective painting because you're aware of it "out-of-universe" and you're trying to invoke a stage plan to do it. If you want to use a stage plan then I could argue that sickbay happens to be just down the hall and the bridge on the other side and everything is on the same deck. That's not a good way to hand-wave away the corridor

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Unless I'm mistaken you already shortened the outer corridor segments in your visualizations. Looks like we could take some (more) artistic license here if necessary.
Nope - it's as long as it is depicted and it does stick out.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post

Why would that be?
The way it looks to me the entire torpedo section is not that much wider than the command bridge, so it's impossible to have two parallel torpedo bays, therefore we can / should assume that the loading crane and tube are in the center of the dorsal. From there it's not that far to the actual outer docking port doors behind the airlock doors.
I assume at 305m the match would be good, I assume that at 355m the loading crane / tube would shift off-center towards the port side.
Ahh. Since every set seems to have been "over-sized" for the 1000' ship we can assume it would fit a bigger ship. Until I see an accurate creation of the torpedo bay that we can measure I'll assume that it could fit either way

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Obviously there'd be sufficient radiation shielding just as the intermix shaft is shielded well enough, so that you don't need to put on a radiation protective suit and helmet each time you enter the engine room.
Yet we see plenty of guys wearing protective suits and helmets. Perhaps it's not 100% safe as we'd assume it to be...

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
IMHO, the VFX in motion clearly suggest that this section contains very heterogenously formed contents which are compatible with botanic items. It's bad we don't have any closeups of that particular model section but according to the eye witnesses they did put a botany section there.
Or it could be machinery that is bathed in the blue glow of antimatter reactions. It's fortunate that we never did get that close-up in this case.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
If the "2" on the loading arm is a torpedo bay indicator it's rather redundant because you'd have the much bigger sign (in the same line of sight!) at the stern of the section.
Redundancy isn't a terrible thing is it? It's a simpler explanation than thinking that there are many different arms with different numbers on them to represent a loading order, IMHO.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Perhaps Bay 4 was blown up by Khan's phaser hit in TWOK?
The one that was blown up was the same through which Kirk and company entered the ship. If we are to assume the numbers really do indicate bays this would then be Bay 2.
So how do we know it was Bay 2 again? Was their a sign in the scene when it exploded that we could see?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Kirk takes a scenic tour I actually mapped out his path based on what we see on screen and the landmarks do match up.
Great visualization! But the landmarks do not match up. In Picture 2 we can clearly see the glass elevator rails to the right. So the guy there is standing next to a small panel which becomes a large black panel with the green indicators (Pictures 4 and 5) only seconds later.
Look closely at picture 2. You can see the vertical one man elevator rail on Kirk's right. He is walking from starboard wall (entry) to forward wall. The hexagon panel is on the aft wall and thus not be visible in this shot (which if you could do a panoramic it would be on the far left, beyond the port wall.)
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Old November 16 2013, 12:21 PM   #824
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Redundancy isn't a terrible thing is it? It's a simpler explanation than thinking that there are many different arms with different numbers on them to represent a loading order, IMHO. ... So how do we know it was Bay 2 again? Was their a sign in the scene when it exploded that we could see?
I'm very well aware that what I had been trying here was to rationalize what is rather obviously a production / set decoration screw-up. As such, you can easily take very rationalization attempt apart.

How about you let us know how you intend to rationalize the torpedo bay numbers?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Look closely at picture 2. You can see the vertical one man elevator rail on Kirk's right. He is walking from starboard wall (entry) to forward wall. The hexagon panel is on the aft wall and thus not be visible in this shot (which if you could do a panoramic it would be on the far left, beyond the port wall.)
I did look closely at Picture 2.
  • The rectangular objects sticking out on the black intermix shaft rings face port or starboard.
  • The elevator (rail) is either port stern (TMP & TWOK) or starboard bow (TWOK, TMP?)
Thus, it's either the hexagon panel behind Kirk or the blue corridor. Since the blue corridor as a set piece only exists on the stage ground floor, it's fair to assume it's missing on the upper level where Picture 2 was taken. In-universe the blue corridor would probably be where the guy was standing next to the blue panel. Since this would have been too obviously wrong, they pretended the upper blue corridor was where in reality it was the hexagon panel and shot and edited accordingly.

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Old November 16 2013, 02:04 PM   #825
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Redundancy isn't a terrible thing is it? It's a simpler explanation than thinking that there are many different arms with different numbers on them to represent a loading order, IMHO. ... So how do we know it was Bay 2 again? Was their a sign in the scene when it exploded that we could see?
I'm very well aware that what I had been trying here was to rationalize what is rather obviously a production / set decoration screw-up. As such, you can easily take very rationalization attempt apart.
Sure, I love a good rationalization as long as there is reasonable evidence behind it. We just have different levels of "reasonableness"

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
How about you let us know how you intend to rationalize the torpedo bay numbers?
Build out the torpedo bay and see how many can fit

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Look closely at picture 2. You can see the vertical one man elevator rail on Kirk's right. He is walking from starboard wall (entry) to forward wall. The hexagon panel is on the aft wall and thus not be visible in this shot (which if you could do a panoramic it would be on the far left, beyond the port wall.)
I did look closely at Picture 2.
  • The rectangular objects sticking out on the black intermix shaft rings face port or starboard.
  • The elevator (rail) is either port stern (TMP & TWOK) or starboard bow (TWOK, TMP?)
Thus, it's either the hexagon panel behind Kirk or the blue corridor. Since the blue corridor as a set piece only exists on the stage ground floor, it's fair to assume it's missing on the upper level where Picture 2 was taken. In-universe the blue corridor would probably be where the guy was standing next to the blue panel. Since this would have been too obviously wrong, they pretended the upper blue corridor was where in reality it was the hexagon panel and shot and edited accordingly.
There are two single elevator rails in TMP:
1. Forward Starboard corner
2. Aft Port corner

A ladder was added Aft Starboard corner for TWOK where Kirk climbs down in Spock's death scene.

The hexagon is on the aft wall.

The blue corridor where Kirk walks in from would be behind the wall where the guy is standing next to the small panel in Pic 2. In the 3D re-creation, you'll notice that there is no connecting foyer to a blue corridor on the top level where Kirk enters but there is one on the level below.

The way the top level is setup, Kirk enters from the upper blue corridor, walks around behind the forward wall to behind the starboard wall and enters from the starboard wall.

All total, there are two forward blue corridors stacked on top of each other. One above where Kirk enters and one below where Kirk leaves.
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