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Old July 4 2011, 09:09 PM   #331
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

LOL - The Enterprise is truly more than meets the eye
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Old July 7 2011, 02:51 AM   #332
mattpiper
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Location: Carrollton, TX
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Brilliant. It always bugged me, even as child, how the ends of the warp nacelles would go from grill to ball. Never occurred to me to figure out how to make them "transform." And this from a huge Robotech fan...
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Old July 7 2011, 08:00 AM   #333
Professor Moriarty
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Now all you need to do is figure out
  • how to make the bridge module go up and down in height
  • how the impulse engine vents switch between 2 and 8 exhaust ports
  • how the main deflector dish grows and shrinks in diameter


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Old July 7 2011, 08:03 AM   #334
Professor Moriarty
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

p.s. Oh yeah, and don't forget
  • the retractable spikes on the forward warp nacelle domes
  • the diameter and height of the lower sensor array dome on the primary hull
  • the markings near the upper edges of the primary hull which appear and disappear


OK I'll stop now...
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Old July 7 2011, 08:05 AM   #335
Professor Moriarty
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

OK, one more:
  • the "NCC-1701" registry markings on the ventral side of the primary hull, which change orientation 180 degrees from time to time
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Old July 7 2011, 01:20 PM   #336
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Funny enough, I've been playing around with these items

  • how to make the bridge module go up and down in height
When I model the bridge area, I'll see if there is enough space for machinery to telescope out the module as it looks like it is just the taller dome sunken into the ship.
  • how the impulse engine vents switch between 2 and 8 exhaust ports
This I've played with and the idea is to have 8 ports and various vent coverings slide in and out of place.
  • how the main deflector dish grows and shrinks in diameter
I'm torn between blades fanning out from the smaller diameter to retracting outer blades that slide in.
  • the retractable spikes on the forward warp nacelle domes
Exactly. Retractable spikes in the forward domes. The domes can transition between opaque and semi-transparent.
  • the diameter and height of the lower sensor array dome on the primary hull
I haven't noticed this before. Is there an episode that I can check this against?
  • the markings near the upper edges of the primary hull which appear and disappear
Are you referring to the black arcs near the port/starboard lights? If so, there would be hull panels that slide out of the way to expose them.
  • the "NCC-1701" registry markings on the ventral side of the primary hull, which change orientation 180 degrees from time to time
This one I've read about. Is there a specific episode where the registry flipped (as in showing both ways in the same episode)?

  • Here's another one: The windows from the Observation Deck in "The Conscience of the King". There are no matching square windows visible on the external shots. The only thing I can do here is assume that like other windows on the ship, they have a shutter ("The Mark of Gideon") and when closed, makes the window blend in on the exterior.
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Old July 7 2011, 05:38 PM   #337
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
the diameter and height of the lower sensor array dome on the primary hullI haven't noticed this before. Is there an episode that I can check this against?
I think it's for scenes where they switch between the 3' and 11' model. Check out The Cage and Tomorrow is Yesterday for good examples of the different lower saucer - the windows in that section are markedly lower on the smaller model.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Here's another one: The windows from the Observation Deck in "The Conscience of the King". There are no matching square windows visible on the external shots. The only thing I can do here is assume that like other windows on the ship, they have a shutter ("The Mark of Gideon") and when closed, makes the window blend in on the exterior.
That's pretty much the solution I came up with too (the great thing is, TMOG gives us an in-universe precedent!)

Just out of curiosity, did you have an ingenious in-universe explanation for why the bridge module would need to rise up & down?

ADDED A NEW ONE:
The navigation lights on the saucer change from 120 degrees to 180 degrees, depending on the shot (i.e. from WNMHGB or the series proper)
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Old July 7 2011, 06:53 PM   #338
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mytran - I think I might be okay on the 3' lower saucer section difference. I'm using Tallguy's awesome collected FX shots page as a reference, but the only shot that is clear on the different shape is the "Cage Blur Away" shot and that looks like appeared only once. From that shot angle, I think the 11' would look pretty close to it as well.

I'm going to hunt around for the 120-180 degree nav light change. I know I saw it in one of my reference shots but need to place it in an episode to get a feel for how and when it would change and if it changed between shots in the same episode. (But my quick answer would be, an extra pair of backup lights? or lights that are rotated in and out of service for maintenance?)

Now there is a set of three lights on the bottom lower edge of the saucer rim in the 4 and 8 o'clock position that can be mistaken for the bottom nav light at the 3 and 9 o'clock position especially if they are not on. Could that be what you're thinking of?

As to an in-universe explanation to the adjustable height bridge dome? Not really A guess, if I were to build the mechanics behind it would be that the dome is not *the* bridge dome. It's a sensor dome that is on top of the bridge which is more nestled in the larger tear drop structure. The rear turbolift looking tube behind the dome is not a turboshaft but part of the lifting/lowering mechanism. The sensor dome rises to expose more sensitive gear and slides in when not needed.

As to how the bridge shot in "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" fits in, the "hole at the top" could just be the Talosian's way of presenting the memory to Kirk and crew (mismatched angles and fov from aliens) so I'm going to not factor that in to where the bridge is. (I'm quietly sneaking to a fireproof place )
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Old July 7 2011, 11:30 PM   #339
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

The 4 o'clock / 8 o'clock lights usually show up whenever footage from WNMHGB is used, but they are only lights, and an easy problem to deal with. I just thought I'd mention them for completeness.

Good speculation about the "bridge" dome! The transparent section as seemingly presented in The Menagerie and The Cage never made a lot of sense except as a a SFX POV shot (of either the audience or the Talosians). Or that would be one large, fragile ceiling!!! The job of the infamous zoom-in shot is to provide a sense of scale, which is does quite well.

In any case, we see the ceiling of the bridge when Kirk walks in during WNMHGB, and it is definitely opaque:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnail...album=3&page=3
(middle upper picture)
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Old July 8 2011, 01:37 AM   #340
Cary L. Brown
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
@Mytran - I think I might be okay on the 3' lower saucer section difference. I'm using Tallguy's awesome collected FX shots page as a reference, but the only shot that is clear on the different shape is the "Cage Blur Away" shot and that looks like appeared only once. From that shot angle, I think the 11' would look pretty close to it as well.

I'm going to hunt around for the 120-180 degree nav light change. I know I saw it in one of my reference shots but need to place it in an episode to get a feel for how and when it would change and if it changed between shots in the same episode. (But my quick answer would be, an extra pair of backup lights? or lights that are rotated in and out of service for maintenance?)

Now there is a set of three lights on the bottom lower edge of the saucer rim in the 4 and 8 o'clock position that can be mistaken for the bottom nav light at the 3 and 9 o'clock position especially if they are not on. Could that be what you're thinking of?

As to an in-universe explanation to the adjustable height bridge dome? Not really A guess, if I were to build the mechanics behind it would be that the dome is not *the* bridge dome. It's a sensor dome that is on top of the bridge which is more nestled in the larger tear drop structure. The rear turbolift looking tube behind the dome is not a turboshaft but part of the lifting/lowering mechanism. The sensor dome rises to expose more sensitive gear and slides in when not needed.

As to how the bridge shot in "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" fits in, the "hole at the top" could just be the Talosian's way of presenting the memory to Kirk and crew (mismatched angles and fov from aliens) so I'm going to not factor that in to where the bridge is. (I'm quietly sneaking to a fireproof place )
Well, except that Roddenberry wanted it to be a big freakin' window... that makes perfect sense.

There's probably a happy medium to be found. Perhaps you can have a strut-based framework underneath it, ala TMP, but with the clear dome on top? That frame could also support the topside sensor system?
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Old July 8 2011, 04:16 AM   #341
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mytran - excellent spotting that opaque ceiling in WNMHGB!

@Cary L. Brown - Even though Roddenberry might have intended it to be a windowed ceiling dome it doesn't appear to be that on screen in the interior shot. There does appear to be a small opening near the very center, so it could be some type of framework in the opaque ceiling that just happens to be covered up by ceiling panels as per your suggestion (ala TMP). The small opening could lead upward to some kind of glowy-light machinery that's part of the sensor dome above. I'll give that a go to model at some point when I make it up to the bridge
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Old July 8 2011, 08:53 AM   #342
Cary L. Brown
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Location: Austin, Texas
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
@Mytran - excellent spotting that opaque ceiling in WNMHGB!

@Cary L. Brown - Even though Roddenberry might have intended it to be a windowed ceiling dome it doesn't appear to be that on screen in the interior shot. There does appear to be a small opening near the very center, so it could be some type of framework in the opaque ceiling that just happens to be covered up by ceiling panels as per your suggestion (ala TMP). The small opening could lead upward to some kind of glowy-light machinery that's part of the sensor dome above. I'll give that a go to model at some point when I make it up to the bridge
To be entirely fair... we never saw the ceiling of the bridge at all, did we? And what little portion of the "above the lighting cove" region we saw was simply black. And, of course, from a brightly lit room, most of the time all you'd be able to see would be blackness.

The only STRONG argument for an entirely enclosed ceiling would be "Balance of Terror," I suppose... but then again, if the nuke going off just a few hundred meters ahead of the Enterprise didn't blast it to vapor, obviously the shields blocked most of that. Still, you'd think that more radiation would go through a transparent dome than through hull material, as a rule...
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Old July 8 2011, 11:40 AM   #343
WinstonSmith
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

um, didn't mytran just post a picture that showed the ceiling only a couple replies before? the one that blssdwlf referred to in the post you quoted? sorry if you're talking about something else, it's entirely possible I've misunderstood you
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Old July 8 2011, 12:44 PM   #344
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

CLB: I have no problem with the dome itself being transparent, I just don't think it should act as a window over the bridge. After all, this is a sensor dome, right? Where is all the sensor equipment supposed to go?

I forgot to mention, there is another shot of the bridge "ceiling":
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnail...bum=71&page=35
(top left)

OK, so it's not exactly a ceiling - You can see from the pattern of shadows that in both ITITNB and WNMHGB it seems they just hung vertical flats on top of the existing bridge wedges to enable the director to film his desired shot. Was it (on low resolution TVs) meant to represent a curved dome ceiling? Possibly. But if not, the ceiling would have to be even higher, at least 14' off the deck level!

One final thought. If the dome were truly a window, then it might appear black from the inside, as CLB described. Except that in the Trek universe (even TOS) this never happens - every time they look out of a window from a fully lit room, loads of stars are visible! Must be that futuristic Transparency they use...
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Old July 8 2011, 02:11 PM   #345
Cary L. Brown
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Location: Austin, Texas
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Well, I put the "hanging flats" into the same category as the "curved corridor in front of main engineering" and so forth... basically, things that we're permitted to "squint" at and pretend were "really" otherwise.

What they did for the TMP bridge actually works quite nicely... better, even, for the TOS bridge than the TMP bridge.

I did a quick search and found this. It's very crude, but it does sort of illustrate the approach I'd probably take, were I starting from scratch here and were not trying to replicate "original intent" on my own model in this regard.

http://www.dynamiceye.net/gallery/st...rise-TOS5.html
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