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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Bajorans - do you like them or not?
Bajorans are great, a very well developed race/culture, I enjoyed plots that focused on them 36 60.00%
Bajorans are dull/annoying, I hated plots that focused on them 10 16.67%
They are so-so, I have no strong feelings on the matter 14 23.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 16 2010, 01:11 AM   #16
DevilEyes
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Withers wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.

There's a term for this (literally); it's called dramatic conflict....
Yes there is, and it certainly has nothing to do with with this unoriginal, banal, and jejune idea of putting a cat and a dog together in a bag to see what happens.
No, for real dramatic conflict you have to look at the Starfleet and the Maquis in VOY...

Please enlighten me - what makes good dramatic conflict? Two groups of people who have no problems in their past whatsoever? Two groups of people with very few problems that they will solve until the end of the episode? What exactly?

All those war crime tribunals, truth and reconciliation commissions, etc... Thank you for making me understand how unoriginal, banal and jejune they are!
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Old April 16 2010, 01:30 AM   #17
Kai Winn
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Dick1979 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.
It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
weren't the borg frequently compared to the usa? this has some merits, both are socially committed, willing to naturalize almost any race, technologically advanced, strive for perfection, and maintain order far beyond their own territory.
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Old April 16 2010, 01:49 AM   #18
Withers
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Withers wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.

There's a term for this (literally); it's called dramatic conflict....
Yes there is, and it certainly has nothing to do with with this unoriginal, banal, and jejune idea of putting a cat and a dog together in a bag to see what happens.

I'm also not clear on what your issue is with the premise of having two diametrically opposed species featured within the same show. The alternative, as has been noted, is the Maquis/Federation relationship on Voyager or the complete absence of any such adversarial cornerstone relationship in TNG. Since TNG is often lampooned for its unrealistic portrayal of relationships in the future (i.e. everyone gets along) and Voyager has been castigated since the end of season one for its failure to explore the nature of conflict realistically, I'd say DS9 did what could have been reasonably expected as the alternative to those two things quite well.

Not liking the Bajorans or the Cardassians or the characters entailed in either species is one thing. Not liking the idea of conflict in a drama, however, is tantamount to not liking the idea of jokes in a comedy.



-Withers-
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Old April 16 2010, 02:26 AM   #19
I am not Spock
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

According to Memory Alpha, the reason they decided to set DS9 around Bajor in the first place is because of the popularity of Ensign Ro. How ironic that Michelle Forbes opted not to join the cast. Oh, well. We got Kira instead.
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Old April 16 2010, 02:36 AM   #20
DevilEyes
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Dick1979 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.
It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
USA = The Federation? That's probably what it stood for in the TOS, but it doesn't really make sense. European Union = the Federation, in some aspects anyway, would make more sense.

China = Vulcan? I don't see the connection?

And would that mean that China is a founding member of USA?

TOS Klingon Empire clearly stood for the Soviet Union during the Cold War. But I don't see any similarities between Russians and Klingons as depicted in Star Trek.

European Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor?! How does that make any sense at all?

And European Union is also a member of USA?
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Old April 16 2010, 02:36 AM   #21
Zameaze
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Withers wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Withers wrote: View Post


There's a term for this (literally); it's called dramatic conflict....
Yes there is, and it certainly has nothing to do with with this unoriginal, banal, and jejune idea of putting a cat and a dog together in a bag to see what happens.
Not liking the idea of conflict in a drama, however, is tantamount to not liking the idea of jokes in a comedy.
You're putting words in my mouth. I love good conflict, at least in my fiction. The Bajorans are martyrs. It takes really good writers to create interesting conflict between bullies and martyrs. For the most part, the writers failed miserably.
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Old April 16 2010, 02:39 AM   #22
John200
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Dick1979 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.
It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
Hey what species represents Canada?

I feel left out.
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Old April 16 2010, 02:40 AM   #23
DevilEyes
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Zameaze wrote: View Post
Withers wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post

Yes there is, and it certainly has nothing to do with with this unoriginal, banal, and jejune idea of putting a cat and a dog together in a bag to see what happens.
Not liking the idea of conflict in a drama, however, is tantamount to not liking the idea of jokes in a comedy.
You're putting words in my mouth. I love good conflict, at least in my fiction. The Bajorans are martyrs. It takes really good writers to create interesting conflict between bullies and martyrs. For the most part, the writers failed miserably.
Most Bajorans were NOT martyrs. A martyr is someone who willingly suffers for the sake of a religion or principle. Most Bajorans didn't have a choice. The word you're looking for is "victims".

So, I guess you're saying that Bajorans were victims, and that you can't have a good conflict between victims and bullies?

Um, how about when some of those victims also happen to be the terrorists who blow up and murder the bullies (including the civilians) and eventually drive them away?
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Old April 16 2010, 02:45 AM   #24
Withers
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

John200 wrote: View Post
Dick1979 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.
It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
Hey what species represents Canada?

I feel left out.

The Gorn. For evidence of my reasoning just look at photos of Celine Dion.



-Withers-
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Old April 16 2010, 02:52 AM   #25
Zameaze
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Withers wrote: View Post

Not liking the idea of conflict in a drama, however, is tantamount to not liking the idea of jokes in a comedy.
You're putting words in my mouth. I love good conflict, at least in my fiction. The Bajorans are martyrs. It takes really good writers to create interesting conflict between bullies and martyrs. For the most part, the writers failed miserably.
Martyrs-terrorists who eventually drove the 'bullies' away?
Yeah, yeah, yeah...boring, boring, boring.

But I do agree with you about the Maquis in Voyager--they had a chance to create some real dramatic conflict with them being aboard Voyager--and they never did anything with it.
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Old April 16 2010, 02:55 AM   #26
Zameaze
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

John200 wrote: View Post
Dick1979 wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post
Bajorans are Jews, Cardassians are Nazis--what would happen if they were forced to work together? Boring, boring, boring.
It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
Hey what species represents Canada?

I feel left out.
Tribbles?
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Old April 16 2010, 02:57 AM   #27
John200
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Withers wrote: View Post
John200 wrote: View Post
Dick1979 wrote: View Post

It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
Hey what species represents Canada?

I feel left out.

The Gorn. For evidence of my reasoning just look at photos of Celine Dion.




-Withers-
No she's just an experimental weapon we've lost control of.
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Old April 16 2010, 02:58 AM   #28
DevilEyes
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Zameaze wrote: View Post
DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Zameaze wrote: View Post

You're putting words in my mouth. I love good conflict, at least in my fiction. The Bajorans are martyrs. It takes really good writers to create interesting conflict between bullies and martyrs. For the most part, the writers failed miserably.
Martyrs-terrorists who eventually drove the 'bullies' away?
Yeah, yeah, yeah...boring, boring, boring.

But I do agree with you about the Maquis in Voyager--they had a chance to create some real dramatic conflict with them being aboard Voyager--and they never did anything with it.
So... you're saying that Maquis were much better terrorists than the Bajorans? That there are more differences and painful history to explore between the Maquis and the Starfleet than between the Bajorans and the Cardassians, or what?

Help me understand... I really don't get it? The Maquis vs the Starfleet = opportunity for great dramatic conflict, Bajorans vs Cardassians = boring, boring, boring? How does that work?
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Old April 16 2010, 02:59 AM   #29
John200
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

Zameaze wrote: View Post
John200 wrote: View Post
Dick1979 wrote: View Post

It's funny you should make that comparrison. I too have drawn the same parallels between these two species. As a
Matter of fact I have compared each major species in the Trekverse to that of our world. It's goes as fallows:

USA = The Federation
china = Vulcan
Japan = Romulan
Russia = Klingon
Euro Union = Trill, Betazed, Andor

Okay, bring on the heat.
Hey what species represents Canada?

I feel left out.
Tribbles?
But I'm not born pregnant?
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Old April 16 2010, 03:21 AM   #30
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bajorans - yay or nay

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
USA = The Federation? That's probably what it stood for in the TOS, but it doesn't really make sense. European Union = the Federation, in some aspects anyway, would make more sense.
Definitely agreed...a combination of the EU and the United Nations.

China = Vulcan? I don't see the connection?
I would've picked Japan, personally...although I can actually see where the China bit is coming from since it's a very, VERY tightly controlled society. Not necessarily in terms of Big Brother, but in terms of culture...which is why I ultimately settle on Japan rather than China.

TOS Klingon Empire clearly stood for the Soviet Union during the Cold War. But I don't see any similarities between Russians and Klingons as depicted in Star Trek.
In TOS I can see the Russian parallel. But in the later series, I think it's the Cardassians who most closely resemble the Russians on many levels.
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