RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,885
Posts: 5,329,773
Members: 24,557
Currently online: 494
Newest member: Mgroup Video

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 15 2010, 09:56 PM   #91
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Kegg wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Marvel will not pay for that film?
Not the question. I'm wondering what Trent Roman sees in a Thor comic book movie, not what Marvel of course sees.

To attempt to answer your question, there's nothing wrong with the original Norse myths. Personally, I'd love to see a kick-ass adaptation of the classic Thor. But that's not this movie.

THE MIGHTY THOR is its own thing, a long-running comic with its own mythology, fandom, and forty years of history. It has less to do with classical mythology and more to do with the far-out, comic book notion of an ancient Norse thunder god fighting super-villains, aliens, and robots as well as evil gods. Done right, the movie could be a ball, mixing modern-day superhero action and high fantasy.

The new movie was never supposed to be about the mythical Thor. It's a comic book movie, like GREEN LANTERN or BATMAN. And, as a comic, THE MIGHTY THOR is just as worthy of a film version as any other comic book hero.

Comparing THE MIGHTY THOR to the myths is like comparing XENA to the original Greek myths. They're not the same thing at all, but that doesn't mean XENA wasn't a lot of fun.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline  
Old April 15 2010, 10:23 PM   #92
Trent Roman
Rear Admiral
 
Trent Roman's Avatar
 
Location: The Palace of Pernicious Pleasures
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Kegg wrote: View Post
^
Then why bother with the middle-man? What is it about the comic book Thor as opposed to the kickass Thor of myth I grew up with (honestly having first learned of the American version through threads here about the movie I was a little miffed) which merits this filmic adaptation, in your eyes?
Because Marvel's version has a unique set-up, overall plot and cast of supporting characters (both Asgardian and on Earth) that makes it a story unto itself. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't mean it shouldn't try to correct obvious, non-essential inaccuracies in the adaptation, like Thor's speech or non-native decor and costuming. Volstagg, for instance, is original to the Marvel mythos, and the Warriors Three more generally part of what makes the Marvel version unique--but I would dearly welcome an effort to make Volstagg's costume less garish, more Norse-ish.

EDIT: Late again.

Also, why an exception for Queztalcoatl, now that I think of?
Quetzalcoatl is a deity who specifically doesn't look like his worshippers. While the whole thing about the Aztecs confusing CortÚs for Quetzalcoatl is largely a myth, it's one case where one would probably go outside the nominal ethnicity for an actor to portray him, since his physical difference is part of his mythos. Heimdall is an authentic Norse deity whose characteristics clearly make him part of the ethnic culture the myths sprang from.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
__________________
Obdurants and Amusings - Behind the Shampoo Curtain
Trent Roman is offline  
Old April 15 2010, 10:23 PM   #93
Kegg
Rear Admiral
 
Kegg's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland.
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^I repeat - I never said there was any kind of shortage of white heroes, only that they are not interchangeable. If a little girl looks up to Wonder Wonder and some writer kills her off, she's going to be devastated. She's not going to just shrug her shoulders and move on to some other superheroine.
She will move on though. And as far as quantity versus quality goes; of the movies I mentioned, Star Trek, Transformers 2, Harry Potter and Avatar were quite popular at the box office, and some also were considered quality films by some. And we're just talking about a single year here.

I can't think of any comparable movie from the United States to star a nonwhite protagonist.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
To attempt to answer your question,
Well, it's really Trent Roman I was curious about since he wants a less comic booky look for the Norse gods (because if so, what is it about the comic book he wants?), but that's as good a defense as any, I'll be sure.

I'm not inherently anti-comic book Thor, just... welll, you know. Anyone's a trifle protective of the stories they grew up with, and I loved Norse mythology. Much as the comic book fans seem antsy about changes to their version, I look at the comic book and think, 'THOR IS ODIN'S SON? WHAT THE HELL?' There goes all their bitter reactions out the window; Odin and Thor can't insult each other with fag jokes if they're father and son... can they?
__________________
'Spock is always right, even when he's wrong. It's the tone of voice, the supernatural reasonability; this is not a man like us; this is a god.'
- Philip K. Dick
Kegg is offline  
Old April 15 2010, 11:01 PM   #94
Lapis Exilis
Rear Admiral
 
Lapis Exilis's Avatar
 
Location: Underground
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^I repeat - I never said there was any kind of shortage of white heroes, only that they are not interchangeable. If a little girl looks up to Wonder Wonder and some writer kills her off, she's going to be devastated. She's not going to just shrug her shoulders and move on to some other superheroine.

I would much rather see black heroes, old and new, promoted as well as white ones instead of playing patronising casting games but the main reason they are held back is the same reason everyone here is saying you couldn't cast white actors to play them.

If all a black hero does is drone on about white men then white readers will be put off. If all a superheroine does is drone on about men then male readers will be put off. If a black hero is just a hero then nobody is put off and everyone can enjoy the character.
So, see, the solution is to simply make black heroes and female heroes deny anything about authentic black or female experience and fit into the dominant white male cultural norm for what a hero is and all the white males who have no ability to understand or appreciate the unique experience of people different from them won't be put off and everything will be great. Don't you get it? It's so simple!
__________________
Don't try to win over the haters; you're not the jackass whisperer. - Scott Straten
Lapis Exilis is offline  
Old April 15 2010, 11:02 PM   #95
Rincewiend
Vice Admiral
 
Rincewiend's Avatar
 
Location: .eu / .nl
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

I always considered the Norse and Greek Gods in the Marvel universe similair to the Eternals...
__________________
Don't trust atoms, they make up everything!
Rincewiend is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 12:20 AM   #96
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
Kegg wrote: View Post
^
You just said white kids need heroes who look like them too... which is fair enough. But even if every single superhero suggested in this thread had a movie come out where they're black, there would still be a glut of films with white heroes. So I do not see the problem, really.
It's not about quantity. Kids don't just shrug their shoulders and move on to the next guy.

.

But you may be proceeding from a false assumption. Who is to say that little white girls will stop looking up to Wonder Woman if she's played by Zoe Saldana or Lucy Liu? The fact that Zorro is Spanish didnt stop generations of white kids from worshipping him.

Like I said before, when I was kid, I didn't prefer Ghost Rider to Blade because Ghost Rider was white. They were both just cool horror-comic characters as far as I was concerned.

And when I'm writing, say, Ben Sisko or Renee Montoya, I don't have any trouble identifying with them. (Hell, the heroine in my last novel was a sexy Inuit forest ranger!)

Eartha Kitt played Catwoman to great effect way back in the sixties. So why are we still worrying about this forty years later?
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 12:27 AM   #97
Myasishchev
Rear Admiral
 
Myasishchev's Avatar
 
Location: America after the rain
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
More "representational" bullcrap. Let's have a latino Superman, and a Batman who becomes BatWOMAN after a trip to Sweden and Will Smith in drag playing Wonder Woman...
There's nothing innately wrong with any of those suggestions...why do you imagine that there is? Certainly there can't be any reasonable objection to a latino Superman.

Hell, the Will Smith idea may be the only way to get a WW movie actually made.
Will Smith as WW? That's ridiculous!

Zoe Saldana, on the other hand . . . .
See, I could get behind that, because race is so irrelevant to Wonder Woman--largely because she comes from a made-up magicky place where race isn't a factor, whereas a black Superman or Batman would have to ignore or downplay their race, because the experiences of whitebread and silver spoon would have almost definitely been profoundly different, changing the characters, if only slightly.
__________________

Myasishchev is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 12:40 AM   #98
Lapis Exilis
Rear Admiral
 
Lapis Exilis's Avatar
 
Location: Underground
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Myasishchev wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Dennis wrote: View Post

There's nothing innately wrong with any of those suggestions...why do you imagine that there is? Certainly there can't be any reasonable objection to a latino Superman.

Hell, the Will Smith idea may be the only way to get a WW movie actually made.
Will Smith as WW? That's ridiculous!

Zoe Saldana, on the other hand . . . .
See, I could get behind that, because race is so irrelevant to Wonder Woman--largely because she comes from a made-up magicky place where race isn't a factor, whereas a black Superman or Batman would have to ignore or downplay their race, because the experiences of whitebread and silver spoon would have almost definitely been profoundly different, changing the characters, if only slightly.
Because a white couple in Kansas couldn't adopt a black child? I mean, Superman's childhood has got to have been retconned to at least the 1970s by now - there's not much strange about a black kid in Kansas in the 70s. Because there are no black families who have passed significant wealth down? Sarah Breedlove, the first female millionaire in America, and a child of former slaves, made her millions in the early 20th century.

My point is that, truly, making either of those characters work as a person of color really isn't that difficult, if you wanted to do it. It's only the continued assumption of white people that we are the norm, the standard, the default, neutral definition of an American that causes any problems with imagining it.
__________________
Don't try to win over the haters; you're not the jackass whisperer. - Scott Straten
Lapis Exilis is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 12:46 AM   #99
Myasishchev
Rear Admiral
 
Myasishchev's Avatar
 
Location: America after the rain
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

It could work. But it would be more difficult.

And iirc the Kents passed Clark off as their own. Of course, they could be black too.

Also, I'll point out that Kansas is not exactly not full of racism.

Batman would probably work better, because a rich snot is a rich snot.
__________________

Myasishchev is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 01:00 AM   #100
Agenda
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

It's a tricky subject to be sure!

In LOTR, they could have easily cast actors of color, but they didn't. In fact, the white people are essentially the good guys and everybody else are the bad guys. Nobody questioned the filmmakers' motivations. Nobody thought it was a big deal. They were just following the book.

It isn't really that big of deal for Thor that they're going a different route. I'm not against it. It's just a movie.

But if somebody thinks that the movie should follow the book as closely as possible in terms of the characters' appearances, then that's not a big deal, either. It's an equally valid viewpoint to take.
Agenda is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 01:23 AM   #101
Mr. Adventure
Admiral
 
Mr. Adventure's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Adventure
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

So are we all good with the casting in The Last Airbender now?
Mr. Adventure is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 01:24 AM   #102
mswood
Rear Admiral
 
mswood's Avatar
 
Location: 9th level of Hell
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Well it is odd that we would judge the material of a comic and expect the live action versions to match the material. Frankly they will never come close. Hell we have a wolverine who's height is 11 inches off, actors that are so far away from the body structure of the characters they are playing to be off by a huge, huge degree, and yet we as viewers have embraced them.

Oh and by the way their has been a black superman named Clark Kent, rocketed to earth from the planet Krypton so clearly they could do it. Wonders of DC and its millions of alternate universes that are often very similar with just some small differences.

I mean hell Perez's Wonder women is way the hell different then the original artist interpretation, yet Perez's wonder women has been considered the true frame work for the character for the last 3o years.

Even in comics they feel free to change and update their characters, not only in backstory but in appearance as well.

Now personally should they have? I honestly would prefer a more nordic look asgard, but even the comics don't try to do that, at all. Nor do I think teh warriors three will look any where near what the body structure and appearance they have inteh comics. So if I can accept that why should another visual element bother me?
__________________
My fandom will SALT and BURN your fandom!
mswood is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 02:55 AM   #103
Aragorn
Admiral
 
Aragorn's Avatar
 
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Beyond Antares wrote: View Post
In LOTR, they could have easily cast actors of color, but they didn't. In fact, the white people are essentially the good guys and everybody else are the bad guys. Nobody questioned the filmmakers' motivations. Nobody thought it was a big deal. They were just following the book.
Not true. There were plenty of people crying racism over it, even going back to calling the novels racist.
Aragorn is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 03:16 AM   #104
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
What bothers me is why people want to see Will Smith as Superman.
This isn't complicated at all:

A lot of people really, really like Will Smith. It's not as if casting a guy who looks like the comic book drawings of Superman has ever guaranteed a good movie, so why get more wrapped up in that than in casting actors we like to watch?

One thing that putting Smith in any one of these movies would virtually guarantee is that more than enough people would enjoy the movie to make it a success.

As for "disrespecting the artist," Superman is one case where nothing the studios could come up with would disrespect the creators any more than the corporation that owns him already has.

On the other note, white kids in America are in no danger of running short on popular culture fictional heroes that look just like them - if "of the same ethnic background" is what's meant by "looking like them."

I'd like the idea of Zoe Saldana as Wonder Woman for the same reason as Smith/Superman, BTW - because I'd rather watch Saldana in a movie than any of the other actors that Internet comic fans throw around as possible casting for the character based on no better reasons than ethnicity and big tits.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline  
Old April 16 2010, 06:01 AM   #105
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
 
Location: the Unreconstructed South
Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Theodore Jay Miller wrote: View Post
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
It's one thing to not pay attention to race if the story is explicitly about race, and another to not pay attention to race when it's entirely immaterial to the story.
Right. For a character like the Black Panther, say, it's a significant part of the character concept that he's an African prince; a white actor would be very dissonant. But for a lot of white comic book characters, their race is not really significant; the comic book writers just tended to make everyone white by default. So using black actors for some of them would not be a big dissonance.
Like hell it isn't. Keep your PC off my superheroes!

If you want an ethnic hero to show "diversity", do the hard work of developing an original character and putting it out there for public inspection. Stop trying to co-opt existing characters for your political agenda.
darkwing_duck1 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
idris elba, kenneth branagh, marvel comics, thor

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.