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Old April 15 2010, 08:53 PM   #76
Greg Cox
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Again, you disrespect the artist. Superman is drawn white therefore he is. That's all there is to it.

.

No offense. But I think you're being too literal here. And holding comics books to a different standard than any other medium.

The stage is a visual medium, too. And King Lear is a British character who was consistently portrayed as a white guy for over six hundred years. Superman's only been around for about seventy years. And yet he's more sacred than Lear for some reason?

Just because Superman used to be drawn one way doesn't mean that's set in stone forever.

You just use a different color of ink . . . .
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Old April 15 2010, 08:58 PM   #77
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

^
It also has more relevance to the plot. Lear is King of England when that was essentially a white nation; Superman is an alien who is white... because.

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Again, you disrespect the artist. Superman is drawn white therefore he is.
He's also drawn as bigger and more strongly chinned than Christopher Reeves, at least in my experience. What of it?

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
Oh, and I still don't think this is a good idea. Asgard should look like a racial relic, because it is. It's the pantheon of a limited ethnic group, and should reflect that visually,
Maybe, but that wouldn'e be true to the comic, where they plainly aren't big on Norse-style clothing, and thus do not visually represent that ethnic group.

Really, I'm struck by the irony implict in demanding people stay faithful to something which ran roughshod over its source material. It'd be like saying the new Planet of the Apes film needs to remain consistent with the Burton feature; but I disgress...
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Old April 15 2010, 08:58 PM   #78
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

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No, I don't. You miss the point - while Luke's backstory is for the most part race-non-specific (the cultural genesis of the character, much less so; he's clearly a product of the 1970s blaxploitation cinema), there are other reasons why casting a white (or other race) in that part would be a bad idea. As I already stated, there aren't many black superheroes, and you can't close your eyes and pretend that there aren't longstanding cultural reasons why turning a black hero white sends a bad message.
And turning a white hero black sends the same message on top of the "we think Black people are children who need to be talked down to" one.

White kids are allowed to have heroes who look like them too.

The only way to resolve this properly is to create new black characters who everyone can enjoy or promote the existing ones like Marvel have been doing with Luke Cage. He's been a very prominent part of Marvel's recent major crossover storylines, after all.

Once again, characters' visuals are changed all the time in adaptations. I generally prefer if they resemble the version I'm familiar with from the comics, but it's not impossible for it to be changed and to work very well.

The comics themselves gave Nick Fury a race-swap in the Ultimate Universe, for instance, which is now making its way into all the other-media adaptations.
You used the magic word - "adaptations". I'm not talking about the Ultimate universe or some What If. I'm talking about the front page of Action Comics #1. The classic image of Superman is of a white male and there's nothing wrong with that that needs changing.
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Old April 15 2010, 09:02 PM   #79
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

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White kids are allowed to have heroes who look like them too.
Wait, what?

There's not exactly a shortage of these. Nor does that look to change anytime soon.

Look at last year - action-adventure spectacles like Transformers 2, Star Trek, Termiantor: Rise of the Salvation Army, Harry Potter: Not This Again, Avatar...

Not exactly a shortage of heroes for white kids, is there?
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Old April 15 2010, 09:02 PM   #80
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
No offense. But I think you're being too literal here. And holding comics books to a different standard than any other medium.

The stage is a visual medium, too. And King Lear is a British character who was consistently portrayed as a white guy for over six hundred years. Superman's only been around for about seventy years. And yet he's more sacred than Lear for some reason?

Just because Superman used to be drawn one way doesn't mean that's set in stone forever.

You just use a different color of ink . . . .
I treat comics differently because they are different. They aren't movies or TV or plays or books. They're comics, they stand alone as a unique medium.

Shakespeare didn't work with an artist in creating his characters, comic book creators do.

Kegg wrote: View Post
He's also drawn as bigger and more strongly chinned than Christopher Reeves, at least in my experience. What of it?
You can't easily cast someone as big as Superman with someone who can act, I concede that.
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Old April 15 2010, 09:06 PM   #81
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Kegg wrote: View Post
Maybe, but that wouldn'e be true to the comic, where they plainly aren't big on Norse-style clothing, and thus do not visually represent that ethnic group.
And this is a good opportunity to revise that. I'd hope his Asgard would look more Norse in architecture, style, etc.

He's already said he's getting rid of the old Thor's idiotic habit of talking like a Renaissance-fair reject (thank goodness).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
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Old April 15 2010, 09:08 PM   #82
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Kegg wrote: View Post
Hermiod wrote: View Post
White kids are allowed to have heroes who look like them too.
Wait, what?

There's not exactly a shortage of these. Nor does that look to change anytime soon.

Look at last year - action-adventure spectacles like Transformers 2, Star Trek, Termiantor: Rise of the Salvation Army, Harry Potter: Not This Again, Avatar...

Not exactly a shortage of heroes for white kids, is there?
Who said anything about a shortage ? I'm talking about the subject at hand - taking classically white characters and making them black for no reason other than being "progressive". Nobody's going to stop with casting. Spider-Man's parents will have been killed in a drive by, all his friends will be black too, Flash Thompson will be a gang member and all sorts of other stereotyped changes. Very quickly, what the kid sees on screen isn't the hero this boy looked up to, he's someone else's hero instead and then the "raped my childhood" threads start.
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Old April 15 2010, 09:09 PM   #83
Kegg
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

^
You just said white kids need heroes who look like them too... which is fair enough. But even if every single superhero suggested in this thread had a movie come out where they're black, there would still be a glut of films with white heroes. So I do not see the problem, really.

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
And this is a good opportunity to revise that. I'd hope his Asgard would look more Norse in architecture, style, etc.
Then why bother with the middle-man? What is it about the comic book Thor as opposed to the kickass Thor of myth I grew up with (honestly having first learned of the American version through threads here about the movie I was a little miffed) which merits this filmic adaptation, in your eyes?

Also, why an exception for Queztalcoatl, now that I think of?
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Old April 15 2010, 09:10 PM   #84
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Did they also have spaceships and high technology during the 1960s - I'm pretty sure at one stage, Thor is flying around the Galaxy with an asgardian spaceship. Casting a black actor in this film doesn't raise an eyebrow from me - who gives a shit except for neo-nazis and rednecks?
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Old April 15 2010, 09:11 PM   #85
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Kegg wrote: View Post
Trent Roman wrote: View Post
And this is a good opportunity to revise that. I'd hope his Asgard would look more Norse in architecture, style, etc.
Then why bother with the middle-man? What is it about the comic book Thor as opposed to the kickass Thor of myth I grew up with (honestly having first learned of the American version through threads here about the movie I was a little miffed) which merits this filmic adaptation, in your eyes?

Also, why an exception for Queztalcoatl, now that I think of?

Marvel will not pay for that film?
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Old April 15 2010, 09:13 PM   #86
Kegg
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

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Marvel will not pay for that film?
Not the question. I'm wondering what Trent Roman sees in a Thor comic book movie, not what Marvel of course sees.
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Old April 15 2010, 09:18 PM   #87
Hermiod
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Kegg wrote: View Post
^
You just said white kids need heroes who look like them too... which is fair enough. But even if every single superhero suggested in this thread had a movie come out where they're black, there would still be a glut of films with white heroes. So I do not see the problem, really.
It's not about quantity. Kids don't just shrug their shoulders and move on to the next guy.

As I've said, it's a far better move to push existing black characters and make them iconic too.

We should also not forget that it was a movie about a black superhero that started the modern comic book movie boom by showing it could still work while remaining relatively faithful to the source material.
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Old April 15 2010, 09:19 PM   #88
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Trent Roman wrote: View Post
He's already said he's getting rid of the old Thor's idiotic habit of talking like a Renaissance-fair reject (thank goodness).
He doesn't do that in the comics anymore either (for the most part).

The architecture of Asgard has always been a cross between medieval and sci-fi, because the Asgardians have had 2000+ years of development subsequent to the original myths, and the point was they weren't totally in stasis (though, depending on the writer, they're sometimes written as purely Medieval still, as with the recent Straczynski run; Matt Fraction has expressed more interest in the higher-tech aspects for his upcoming tenure).
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Old April 15 2010, 09:35 PM   #89
Greg Cox
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post


You used the magic word - "adaptations". I'm not talking about the Ultimate universe or some What If. I'm talking about the front page of Action Comics #1. The classic image of Superman is of a white male and there's nothing wrong with that that needs changing.

Yeah, but all movie versions are "adaptations" by definition. And we're talking about casting new movie versions.

Action Comics #1 also took place in the 1930s. Does that mean all movie and tv version need to be period pieces, because that's how it was written and drawn then?

Again, times change. What worked seventy years ago is not the only way to do things now.

And as for the shortage of white superheroes on film, let me add Jonah Hex, Green Lantern, Thor, Captain America, and the Green Hornet to the litany. All of whom currently have movies in the works.

Then again, I was a white kid who read BLACK PANTHER religiously . . . .
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Old April 15 2010, 09:42 PM   #90
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

^I repeat - I never said there was any kind of shortage of white heroes, only that they are not interchangeable. If a little girl looks up to Wonder Wonder and some writer kills her off, she's going to be devastated. She's not going to just shrug her shoulders and move on to some other superheroine.

I would much rather see black heroes, old and new, promoted as well as white ones instead of playing patronising casting games but the main reason they are held back is the same reason everyone here is saying you couldn't cast white actors to play them.

If all a black hero does is drone on about white men then white readers will be put off. If all a superheroine does is drone on about men then male readers will be put off. If a black hero is just a hero then nobody is put off and everyone can enjoy the character.
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