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Old April 19 2010, 07:39 AM   #151
Thespeckledkiwi
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
dru wrote: View Post

I don't really know Thor's corner of the Marvel Universe so I can't speak to whether this casting is a problem that will be pointed at later as a reason why the film sucked. I don't even know the actor's work.

To be honest, the comic book character never had much of a personality. He was the guardian of the gates of Asgard and, as I recall, his main narrative function was to greet Thor whenever he returned to Asgard. "Hail, Odinson! What brings thy noble person back to the Realm Eternal?"

To a degree, worrying about whether the "wrong" Heimdall will ruin the movie is like worrying about who is going to play Felix Leiter in a Bond film . . . .

It doesn't really matter.
This is very true.

Get the best actor for the role!
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Old April 19 2010, 10:08 AM   #152
darkwing_duck1
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics?
No.

Or that the Justice League cartoon chose to have the African-American John Stewart as Green Lantern? I hope so!
Strike Two!

And I'll just bet you're one of the ST fans who flipped when Tim Russ was cast as a -- gasp -- black Vulcan!
Strike Three, you're OUT!

Or how about when Madonna kissed a black saint's feet in her video, "Like A Prayer." I'm sure you were apoplectic!
A little uncomfortable with the Jesus imagery in general and not a fan of Madonna herself, but the race of the actor playing the saint had nothing to do with either.

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
C_Miller wrote: View Post
Has anyone actually mentioned yet that the actor in question is Idris Elba, who happens to be the man? Seriously, get Elba to play Thor or even Superman or Batman. He kicks ass. If it has been mentioned, I apologize, I tried my best to wade through the comments from the person with the confederate flag as an avatar and a location stating he's fro the unreconstructed south saying that a black person can't play a white person...
THIS. Someone clearly has an agenda, wouldn't you say? Like this lovely piece.
Hold on there, hoss! I have ZERO to do with Metzger or any other AN/White Supremacist group. I have not been, am not now, nor will I ever a subscriber to their "agenda".

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Red Ranger's argument is utterly ridiculous anyway.
Nobody was bothered by Rhodey taking over as Iron Man or black Vulcans or Lanterns or anything like that. Why ? Because they weren't taking Tony Stark or Spock or anyone and making them black, they were different people!
This.

More from my friend:

So, first off, they shot themselves in the foot by making that claim. Thor really IS Odin's son

Second, their argument assumes that my objection to the casting of a black actor in the role of a Norse god is based in a prejudice against black people in general, which they have no other information to support. But, it's a general assumption one would expect of someone who can't get Thor's lineage right.

They mistake abuse of willing suspension of disbelief with political forwardness.

Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.

How many of them can name a single African god?

Or even a single loa?
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Old April 19 2010, 10:20 AM   #153
JoeZhang
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics?
No.

Or that the Justice League cartoon chose to have the African-American John Stewart as Green Lantern? I hope so!
Strike Two!



Strike Three, you're OUT!



A little uncomfortable with the Jesus imagery in general and not a fan of Madonna herself, but the race of the actor playing the saint had nothing to do with either.



Hold on there, hoss! I have ZERO to do with Metzger or any other AN/White Supremacist group. I have not been, am not now, nor will I ever a subscriber to their "agenda".

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Red Ranger's argument is utterly ridiculous anyway.
Nobody was bothered by Rhodey taking over as Iron Man or black Vulcans or Lanterns or anything like that. Why ? Because they weren't taking Tony Stark or Spock or anyone and making them black, they were different people!
This.

More from my friend:

So, first off, they shot themselves in the foot by making that claim. Thor really IS Odin's son

Second, their argument assumes that my objection to the casting of a black actor in the role of a Norse god is based in a prejudice against black people in general, which they have no other information to support. But, it's a general assumption one would expect of someone who can't get Thor's lineage right.

They mistake abuse of willing suspension of disbelief with political forwardness.

Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.

How many of them can name a single African god?

Or even a single loa?
Because Marvel can't sell that film? Because they aren't making that film? Because as you have been told a number of times they are making a film about Thor the Marvel character who is loosely based (unless the original Asgard has spaceships in it? and Thor's mother was Gaea rather than the slightly different Jord?) on Thor the mythological figure not a film about Thor the mythological figure.

If you and your white power buddies want that film, go and finance it.
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Old April 19 2010, 10:30 AM   #154
Hermiod
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

^I don't know about the political affiliations of anyone else here but calling people "white supremacists" just because they don't agree with you is a tad unnecessary.

I believe that casting black actors in roles where the character has been portrayed as white throughout his or her history is patronising to black people and disrespectful to the artists involved, and the double standard portrayed here where it is okay to do this but not to cast white actors in non-white roles is racist.

That does not make me a "white supremacist" any more than anyone arguing against me is a member of the Black Panthers or any other such nonsensical argument.
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Old April 19 2010, 11:01 AM   #155
JoeZhang
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^I don't know about the political affiliations of anyone else here but calling people "white supremacists" just because they don't agree with you is a tad unnecessary.

I believe that casting black actors in roles where the character has been portrayed as white throughout his or her history is patronising to black people and disrespectful to the artists involved, and the double standard portrayed here where it is okay to do this but not to cast white actors in non-white roles is racist.

That does not make me a "white supremacist" any more than anyone arguing against me is a member of the Black Panthers or any other such nonsensical argument.
The difference is that the characters that were discussed have traits or situations that arise out of their 'blackness' (for wont of a better word). Luke Cage is a character who arises out of a specific context, as do the characters in Roots. Hemedial, like Nick Fury has nothing specific in his back-story that requires any particular colour - which is why the Nick Fury of the films is not the white guy who has appeared in comics for 50 years but Samuel L. Jackson (who the Ultimate comics version of the character was based upon) because there is nothing about the character that requires him to be black or white.

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.

Last edited by JoeZhang; April 19 2010 at 11:11 AM.
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Old April 19 2010, 11:17 AM   #156
Checkmate
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Hemedial, like Nick Fury has nothing specific in his back-story that requires any particular colour
Uh, very, very, very wrong. Heimdall has, for a very long time, been labeled as "the whitest of the gods." He is, quite literally, the White God.

It's very much the same as casting a Caucasian, a Native American, an Asian, or an Eskimo as Luke Cage.

That's not a racist statement, and it's absolutely absurd to go around throwing insults like "white supremicist" around just because people recognize those facts. Racism works both ways, buddy; caucasians aren't the only ones capable of it.

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.
Except that he's based upon the 'real' Heimdall, and that the comic book characters are very much the Norse gods.
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Old April 19 2010, 11:24 AM   #157
JoeZhang
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Checkmate wrote: View Post

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.
Except that he's based upon the 'real' Heimdall, and that the comic book characters are very much the Norse gods.
Really? I don't remember them making much use of Space-ships? I don't remember Thor's mother being Gaea rather than Jund (who does share some similar characteristics it has to be said)?

I don't remember the 'real' norse gods actually being the creation of older gods who gained power and amusement from every cycle of ragnarok?

And on and on and on...

The characters are whatever the writer of the week wants them to be - hell in one 'origin', They are space lizards...
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Old April 19 2010, 11:37 AM   #158
Checkmate
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

I don't remember the Norse mythologies extended to the modern era, either. What's your point? It doesn't change the fact that Heimdall is very much based on Heimdall, or that Heimdall is "the White God" and "the whitest of the gods." No matter how much you try to say otherwise to rationalize your painfully racist statements.
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Old April 19 2010, 11:58 AM   #159
JoeZhang
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Checkmate wrote: View Post
I don't remember the Norse mythologies extended to the modern era, either. What's your point? It doesn't change the fact that Heimdall is very much based on Heimdall, or that Heimdall is "the White God" and "the whitest of the gods." No matter how much you try to say otherwise to rationalize your painfully racist statements.
When was he ever described as such in the comics? Because I can't remember it.
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Old April 19 2010, 11:59 AM   #160
Hermiod
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
The difference is that the characters that were discussed have traits or situations that arise out of their 'blackness' (for wont of a better word). Luke Cage is a character who arises out of a specific context, as do the characters in Roots. Hemedial, like Nick Fury has nothing specific in his back-story that requires any particular colour - which is why the Nick Fury of the films is not the white guy who has appeared in comics for 50 years but Samuel L. Jackson (who the Ultimate comics version of the character was based upon) because there is nothing about the character that requires him to be black or white.

There is nothing about Hemedial, the comic book character that requires it either.
I think people are splitting hairs in regards to which version of the Norse Gods we are talking about.

The Norse Gods are just that, Norse. Their comic book depiction is based on the beliefs of Northern European people. It's difficult to think of a "whiter" culture than that.

It's more than a little insulting to suggest that a character who is white "has nothing in his background" to make him that way. Why ? Because a character doesn't have "White" in his name ?

Superman "arose out of a specific context" too. Unless you think a white couple passing a black baby they found in a cornfield off as their own wouldn't have changed his backstory just a little bit.

Nick Fury isn't really up for discussion as the Ultimate Universe version of the character was black and nobody had an issue with that. I certainly don't.
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Old April 19 2010, 12:12 PM   #161
darkwing_duck1
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

JoeZhang wrote: View Post

Because Marvel can't sell that film? Because they aren't making that film?
And that's our problem why?

Because as you have been told a number of times they are making a film about Thor the Marvel character who is loosely based (unless the original Asgard has spaceships in it? and Thor's mother was Gaea rather than the slightly different Jord?) on Thor the mythological figure not a film about Thor the mythological figure.
The point was that the people throwing around the "because the comics made some changes to the mythology we can change whatever we want from the comics " charge couldn't even get the fact that Thor IS Odin's son right (whether by Jord or by Gaia).

If you and your white power buddies want that film, go and finance it.
Prove that either myself or my friends are "white power" supporters. My friend whom I quoted would laugh in your face, as he's likely the LEAST racist person I have ever known.

Can't you support your position without making ad hominem attacks on people you don't even know?
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Old April 19 2010, 12:22 PM   #162
Neroon
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

When charges of "racist" and "white power" and mocking of others POV along with other less than glowing terms start being tossed about, it's time for the thread to have a time out. Everyone take a bit of time to cool down. This is a highly charged topic that is not served in the least by these kinds of insults, no matter which side you may be on.

Thread closed TEMPORARILY while we have time to consider this:
I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.
Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address
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Old April 20 2010, 09:47 PM   #163
Red Ranger
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics?
No.

Or that the Justice League cartoon chose to have the African-American John Stewart as Green Lantern? I hope so!
Strike Two!



Strike Three, you're OUT!



A little uncomfortable with the Jesus imagery in general and not a fan of Madonna herself, but the race of the actor playing the saint had nothing to do with either.



Hold on there, hoss! I have ZERO to do with Metzger or any other AN/White Supremacist group. I have not been, am not now, nor will I ever a subscriber to their "agenda".

Hermiod wrote: View Post
^Red Ranger's argument is utterly ridiculous anyway.
Nobody was bothered by Rhodey taking over as Iron Man or black Vulcans or Lanterns or anything like that. Why ? Because they weren't taking Tony Stark or Spock or anyone and making them black, they were different people!
This.

More from my friend:

So, first off, they shot themselves in the foot by making that claim. Thor really IS Odin's son

Second, their argument assumes that my objection to the casting of a black actor in the role of a Norse god is based in a prejudice against black people in general, which they have no other information to support. But, it's a general assumption one would expect of someone who can't get Thor's lineage right.

They mistake abuse of willing suspension of disbelief with political forwardness.

Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.

How many of them can name a single African god?

Or even a single loa?
The gentlemen doth protest too much, methinks.
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Old April 20 2010, 10:08 PM   #164
Kegg
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.
Possible criticisms, if we're talking about the comic book, only we're not. We're talking about a movie based on the comic book; to accept that idea is valid at all you have to accept you're talking about a version of the myths that has been rewritten to accomodate pulp narratives. The filmmakers would probably need a similar comic book series available for the comparison to be apt; but there is not.

But it does ignore the central point; if the believer is offended, logically it would be with the comic as much if not moreso than the film. To not be offended by the comic book's extensive reworking and reinvention of the mythos but be offended by the film casting a black man is, well, bizzare to say the least.
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Old April 20 2010, 10:10 PM   #165
darkwing_duck1
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Re: How Thor breaks down racial barriers in Asgard

Red Ranger wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Red Ranger wrote: View Post
Did you freak out as much when James Rhodes took over as Iron Man in the comics?
No.



Strike Two!



Strike Three, you're OUT!



A little uncomfortable with the Jesus imagery in general and not a fan of Madonna herself, but the race of the actor playing the saint had nothing to do with either.



Hold on there, hoss! I have ZERO to do with Metzger or any other AN/White Supremacist group. I have not been, am not now, nor will I ever a subscriber to their "agenda".



This.

More from my friend:

So, first off, they shot themselves in the foot by making that claim. Thor really IS Odin's son

Second, their argument assumes that my objection to the casting of a black actor in the role of a Norse god is based in a prejudice against black people in general, which they have no other information to support. But, it's a general assumption one would expect of someone who can't get Thor's lineage right.

They mistake abuse of willing suspension of disbelief with political forwardness.

Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.

How many of them can name a single African god?

Or even a single loa?
The gentlemen doth protest too much, methinks.
Translation: you've been owned, game, set, and match, but you won't admit it.

If you have any proof either me or my friend is lying, post it. Otherwise shut up.

Kegg wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Instead of trying to incorporate a black man in a white people's mythology, why not start advocating the popularity of an African or Moorish pantheon instead.
Possible criticisms, if we're talking about the comic book, only we're not. We're talking about a movie based on the comic book; to accept that idea is valid at all you have to accept you're talking about a version of the myths that has been rewritten to accomodate pulp narratives. The filmmakers would probably need a similar comic book series available for the comparison to be apt; but there is not.
So he has a point, but you're going to try to ignore it on a technicality...right...

But it does ignore the central point; if the believer is offended, logically it would be with the comic as much if not moreso than the film. To not be offended by the comic book's extensive reworking and reinvention of the mythos but be offended by the film casting a black man is, well, bizzare to say the least.
1) Re-read what he said. He said he DID have an issue with changing Thor's parentage, but (as he put it to me)that he enjoyed the generally respectful tone of the comic overall.

2) There is a vast difference between making a relatively minor change (Odin/Gaia vs Odin/Jord) that really doesn't affect the character portrayal all that much and changing a fundamental aspect of the character (in this case changing his race in an inappropriate manner).
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