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Old May 27 2010, 05:11 AM   #1
Mallet
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Vancouver
Was Christian the MIB or...

So I was thinking...

It never really made sense to me that GhostChristian (here after just called Christian) was just an apparition of the MIB. Yes, the MIB took credit for the appearances of Christian, but he has been shown to lie a lot (almost any time he spoke) so we can't take his word on the subject as fact.

Also, some (if not all) of the stuff Christian got the Losties to do seems to go against what the MIB's final plan was. So if it was the MIB then the MIB was seriously stupid and did not know what he was doing.

First, getting Locke to move the Island the first time (when Ben did it) would have ended up with Locke being off Island, possibly never to return. And the MIB apparently needed(or at least really wanted) Locke to assume his form. And if the MIB actually meant for Locke to get Ben to move the Island then Ben would have been off the Island, possibly never to return so he wouldn't be there to kill Jacob, and it's pretty obvious the MIB needed Ben to kill Jacob since he probably couldn't find or trick anyone else into killing him (no one else was angry enough at Jacob to do that).

The second time the Island was moved Christian told Locke to "Say hello to my son", which would seem a bit out of character for the MIB to say, not only since Jack wasn't his son but also it seems a bit to "friendly" a thing to say.

Also, the Island was way back in the past at this time, perhaps even pre-MIB being on the Island, and definitely before Christian's body ever ended up on the Island, so unless the MIB was also time jumping, the "current" MIB (if he was even on the Island at the time) wouldn't know to take that form, or who "his son was" or even know/want Locke to move the Island/stop the time jumps.

And, again, by taking Locke off the Island he would have no idea that he would ever/could ever get back to the Island and if Locke was a major part of his plan then that would be a big risk.

So, unless the MIB existed out of time. So he knew the past/present/future all at the same time, all the time (something we haven't seen him to actually know, otherwise he would know how he was going to die, etc... and wouldn't do what he did), so that his ancient pastself, knew what his present day self knew it makes no sense for some of the appearances of Christian to be the MIB.

But... We do know that real ghosts do exist on the Island. Michael was one of them. They were what the whispers were.

We also know that time has no meaning in the afterlife, as explained to us by Christian in the final episode.

So a ghost on the Island might exist outside of space/time, being able to appear at any point in time.

Also, ghosts, including Christian have appeared off Island, something apparently the Smoke Monster couldn't do.

So, maybe the appearances of Christian on the Island were actually the ghost of the real Christian, not the MIB in disguise.

That would make more sense.

First, the first time he asks Locke to move the Island would either get Locke to safety (or Ben off the Island), either way it would get at least one of them out of the MIB's reach and possibly foil the MIB's plans.

Also, moving the Island at that time prevented Jack, Sayid, Sun, Hurley, Aaron, Frank & Desmond from returning to the Island. So it also got them out of the MIB's reach for a time.

The second time he got Locke to move the Island, it was to save the lives of those people time jumping who would have died if Locke hadn't fixed the wheel, stopped the time jumps and moved the Island again.

It would also make sense for him to say: "Say hello to my son." at this time.

Also, if he did in fact exist outside of time (being from the afterlife) he would know what would happen (so he knew Locke would see Jack again) and also that they would all return to the Island and finally stop the MIB.


So all in all, it makes much more sense for Christian to be a real ghost, trying to help his son (and Jacob), rather then being the MIB in disguise making stupid decisions that could potentially ruin his master plan.
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Old May 27 2010, 05:26 AM   #2
Delta1
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

The thing to remember about Christian and Locke is that Smokey needed all the candidates on the island for his murder party. Sending them off island and killing Jacob wouldn't do, because then Illana or Bram would just kidnap the candidates and deliver them to a befuddled Richard, who would do nothing, and then the ghost of Jacob would annoint the new protector. Meanwhile, Smokey would be stuck on the island--he had no plane, no sub, his balloon was deflated, and the boat couldn't get out unless the magic light was unplugged and the island's shroud of navigational confusion went down. Sending Locke away brought all the candidates back, got him an airplane, and got Locke killed--which was really a bonus.

Why did the Real Ghost Christian appear to Jack in LA and Michael on the Kahana? I have no idea. All he did was aid Fake Ghost Christian in his plan to bring Jack back. And Michael evidently didn't believe Christian's message on the freigher, since Michael did not, in fact, go. Nor do I know why he appeared to Vincent and spoke to the dog.
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Old May 27 2010, 05:40 AM   #3
Mallet
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Vancouver
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

But the MIB couldn't kill the candidates, whether they were all together on the Island or not. In fact it would be much easier for them to die off Island, then to die on Island.

And, as I said, unless smokie was traveling in time he couldn't have appeared as Christian back in time to tell Locke to move the island and bring everyone back to the Island.

And, now that I'm thinking about it more, if he was traveling through time with the time jumps then he would also have be in two time frames at once, since he would be stuck back in the 70's with the other time jumpers (and there would be two of him there) plus "at the same time" he was appearing as Locke in the present day.

So, unless Smokie could actually jump through time at will (and not be moving through time with the time jumps the the Losties) it is actually impossible for him to be the Christian that tells Locke to move the Island the second time (and to say "say hello to my son.")

Because the same "time frame" version of him would have to be in the far past, plus in the present at the same time.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:18 AM   #4
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

In the two-hour pre-finale re-cap show, Carlton Cuse flat-out said MIB was masquerading as Christian. Not that you don't have some valid points, mind you.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:25 AM   #5
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

I addressed many of these issues you are raising in the Morpheus_02 thread started earlier today. So rather than posting everything again you might take a peak in there to see what I had to say.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:28 AM   #6
Mallet
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Vancouver
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
In the two-hour pre-finale re-cap show, Carlton Cuse flat-out said MIB was masquerading as Christian. Not that you don't have some valid points, mind you.
I didn't watch the re-cap. They said that? Well I guess it's just another check in the they were making it up as they went along tab.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:37 AM   #7
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

Mallet wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
In the two-hour pre-finale re-cap show, Carlton Cuse flat-out said MIB was masquerading as Christian. Not that you don't have some valid points, mind you.
I didn't watch the re-cap. They said that? Well I guess it's just another check in the they were making it up as they went along tab.
No, it actually makes sense even if Jacob and MIB's plans were more complicated than it needed to be. This is where more scenes or flashes about Jacob and MIB would have come in handy in seeing what they were up to and when certain pieces of the plans were formulated.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:41 AM   #8
Delta1
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

Mallet wrote: View Post
But the MIB couldn't kill the candidates,
He did a pretty good job of killing Sayid and the Kwons.

whether they were all together on the Island or not. In fact it would be much easier for them to die off Island, then to die on Island.
But it could take them decades to die off the island, and he wouldn't even know that they were dead unless he used Jacob's lighthouse or peeped at his list. The list, though, was hardly reliable; Jacob offered the job to Kate even after crossing her name off. And who's to say Jacob wouldn't select a new batch of candidates once the current ticket was exhausted?

Smokey's escape plan depended on killing Jacob and taking out all the candidates before one could be appointed protector. He had nothing to gain by removing the candidates from the island, and everything to gain by collecting them. Thus his behavior in season 6: smooth-talking everyone, trying to forge a unified group, then blowing that group to hell.

And, as I said, unless smokie was traveling in time he couldn't have appeared as Christian back in time to tell Locke to move the island and bring everyone back to the Island.
Smokey was probably camping out in the wheel chamber waiting for someone to come and fix it. You will remember that the wheel chamber remained on the same time track as the jumpers ... Locke descended into the chamber before the well was dug, but there was the wheel, off its axis as Ben left it in 2004. Either the chamber was jumping with Locke & co., or Locke silently jumped back to 2004 after falling into the cave. Either way, Smokey could have been there.

It's also noteworthy that "Christian" told Locke the wheel was off its axis, and that fixing it would stop the time jumps. There's no way Christian would know that, but Smokey built the wheel and knew how it worked. He also knew about Eloise Hawking, someone Christian had never met. Smokey had lived on the island with her for decades, and probably kept himself informed on all the exiles. He also confirmed what Richard said about Locke dying in order to return, an idea that Richard got from Smokey.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:43 AM   #9
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

Mallet wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
In the two-hour pre-finale re-cap show, Carlton Cuse flat-out said MIB was masquerading as Christian. Not that you don't have some valid points, mind you.
I didn't watch the re-cap. They said that? Well I guess it's just another check in the they were making it up as they went along tab.
Not really. Once we knew John was actually MIB at the end of last season, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he was also Christian and had to be the Smoke Monster as well. Christian had arranged for John to go back to the outside world, die, and be returned. When he told Sun and Lapidus Locke was coming to see them and then disappeared forever, to be followed directly by the first appearance of Locke with the Ajira survivors, that pretty much sealed the deal. And there have been some indirect clues in the past, like when Christian appeared in a season four and a smoke alarm started beeping.
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Old May 27 2010, 06:47 AM   #10
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Mallet wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
In the two-hour pre-finale re-cap show, Carlton Cuse flat-out said MIB was masquerading as Christian. Not that you don't have some valid points, mind you.
I didn't watch the re-cap. They said that? Well I guess it's just another check in the they were making it up as they went along tab.
Not really. Once we knew John was actually MIB at the end of last season, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he was also Christian and had to be the Smoke Monster as well. Christian had arranged for John to go back to the outside world, die, and be returned. When he told Sun and Lapidus Locke was coming to see them and then disappeared forever, to be followed directly by the first appearance of Locke with the Ajira survivors, that pretty much sealed the deal. And there have been some indirect clues in the past, like when Christian appeared in a season four and a smoke alarm started beeping.
That wasn't the smoke monster as Christian--he couldn't leave the island. It was just a coincidence of the alarm going off--probably because of low batteries.
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Old May 27 2010, 07:26 AM   #11
startrekwatcher
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

I also just remembered in "Namaste" that when Sun and Frank when to the Dharma village that Christian told them to wait there and lo and behold Smokey as Locke arrives with Ben. If it really was Ghost Christian then why would he have them wait for Mr Evil Incarnate?
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Old May 27 2010, 07:34 AM   #12
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
I also just remembered in "Namaste" that when Sun and Frank when to the Dharma village that Christian told them to wait there and lo and behold Smokey as Locke arrives with Ben. If it really was Ghost Christian then why would he have them wait for Mr Evil Incarnate?
Exactly.

The sequence was shown out of order, though, to confuse us. We saw Flocke in a previous episode, watching over Ben who was lying unconscious. Sun and Lapidus were already gone.

Then we saw in a later episode Sun and Lapidus go with Ben to the boat to leave the Hydra. Sun whacks him over the head with an oar and leaves him, which is why he was unconscious in the previous episode. The two go to the main island, then they hear the smoke monster noise in the woods. Right after that, Christian appears, tells them, "Hey, wait here a bit, okay? John Locke is coming, then do what he says because he's going to help you."

So the chronological sequence of events is this: Christian appears to Sun and Frank, tells them to wait for Locke. Then he disappears from the series forever. It's right after that that Locke magically appears on the beach with the Ajira survivors. He then waits for Ben to come to, and takes him right to Sun and Frank.

Once we get the big reveal that Locke isn't really Locke, it seemed pretty clear to me Christian was the same guy.
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Old May 27 2010, 07:36 AM   #13
Mallet
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Vancouver
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

startrekwatcher wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Mallet wrote: View Post

I didn't watch the re-cap. They said that? Well I guess it's just another check in the they were making it up as they went along tab.
Not really. Once we knew John was actually MIB at the end of last season, it seemed pretty obvious to me that he was also Christian and had to be the Smoke Monster as well. Christian had arranged for John to go back to the outside world, die, and be returned. When he told Sun and Lapidus Locke was coming to see them and then disappeared forever, to be followed directly by the first appearance of Locke with the Ajira survivors, that pretty much sealed the deal. And there have been some indirect clues in the past, like when Christian appeared in a season four and a smoke alarm started beeping.
That wasn't the smoke monster as Christian--he couldn't leave the island. It was just a coincidence of the alarm going off--probably because of low batteries.
That kind of ties in with my original point (unless the PTB have declared that all appearances of GhostChristian have been the MIB, event he off Island ones that make no sense given everything we've seen on the series.)

We "know" that there are two GhostChristian's, the off Island/in the afterlife (flashsideways), on the freighter GhostChristian which could not be the MIB in disguise and then the Cabin dwelling, hanging out with Claire GhostChristian who is the MIB.

So we know not all appearances of GhostChristian have been the MIB.

So... If not all of them have been the MIB then there is a chance that the times GhostChristian has appeared and done/asked the Losties to do things that seemed to go against the MIB's plans (or at least could potentially ruin all his plans) might actually be GhostChristian and not the MIB, since we know that both are running around.

This would make much more sense.

Another thing to think about, remember when Ben first turned the wheel and appeared in the desert? He was attacked by two armed bandits. If he hadn't been quick enough he would have been killed right there. If Locke had turned the wheel right then, then he might have been killed right there in the desert. Either way, bad plan by Smokie to send two people he needed for his master plan to a location where they might be killed.

On the other hand, while not nice, if either of them had died right there in the desert then the MIB's plans would have failed and Jacob would have survived.

So if it was real GhostChristian (not the MIB) telling Locke to move the Island then it would make more sense.

Especially since we know there are two of them running around.
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Old May 27 2010, 07:49 AM   #14
Delta1
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

Those weren't bandits, those were Widmore's security forces. He had the Tunisia exit under surveillance. Delivering Locke to Widmore advanced Smokey's plan because Widmore had the resources to track down the candidates and the means to return them to the island. Delivering Ben to Widmore was a calculated risk. Ben was the best person to kill Jacob, but once Smokey had assumed leadership of the Others he could have manipulated any of them to do it.
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Old May 27 2010, 08:15 AM   #15
Mallet
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Vancouver
Re: Was Christian the MIB or...

I know I am beating a dead horse. The writers have said Christian was the MIB. I don't mind not knowing all the answers to the mysteries and I liked the ending of the show. I thought it was really good and touching. I even get the MIB's master plan, etc...

I just hate it when the main bad guys master plan, in any show, book, comics or what not, makes no sense, is overly complicated, down right dumb or just dragged out for the sake of dragging it out. It brings down the whole show in a way.

As another example, when Ben first turned the wheel all the MIB had to do was show up to him (maybe as Alex) and tell him to wait a couple of minutes before doing it. Then the Losties in the helicopter would have been back on the Island (or in range of the Island) and would never have left. They would be stuck there jumping through time with Sawyer, Juliet, and all the rest. If the MIB can travel through time, know everything that is going on, etc... then he would know that.

Then he would just have to wait for the time jumping effect to kill off all the candidates through brain hemorrhages caused by the time jumps and boom. All of Jacob's replacements are dead without him having to trick them back to the Island, without him having to get them all together, in a submarine that he wouldn't even know would be there (since it was Jacob that sent for Widmore) and put a fake bomb in Jacks bag and hope that Sawyer would try and disarm it and kill them all at once, etc... they would all be dead with out all of that hassle.

And he could still take Locke dead form after that. His dead body would be on the Island, no matter what year he died, so he could appear as Locke any time in the future.

From that point on all he would have to do is trick some other sucker into killing Jacob. Apparently not a hard thing to do since tons of the Others were will to join up with him at the first sign of trouble at the temple in season six. He was also, as NotLocke, able to get Richard to lead him right to Jacob. So getting someone to stab Jacob shouldn't be all that hard for a master manipulator like he was. At least it would be a heck of a lot easier then sending people through time, off Island, tricking them into trying to commit suicide, hoping that they would find each other and get talked into returning to the island because their off Island lives sucked so much, then finding one of Jacob's people and getting her to tell them how to get back to the Island, whcih exact flight they had to be on, hope that jacob himself (!!!) would help convince some of them to return to the Island, then fly back, survive an emergency landing then, then... then... then...

That's a really complicated plan that could have gone wrong dozens of times, for the slightest of reasons, not the least of which involve having Jacob help him out and the Dharma people help him out, all off Island where he apparently had no control or influence, leaving him with nothing, rather then a nice simple solution, that if he was GhostChristian he could have had without any problem.
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Last edited by Mallet; May 27 2010 at 08:32 AM.
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