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Old April 11 2010, 07:03 PM   #1
Lonemagpie
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Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Apparently in some attempt to prove that atheists fundies can be just as barking as religious fundies, and setting back the cause of rationalism by decades, Dawkins - and Chris Hitchens - intends to have the Panzerpope arrested on "crimes against humanity" charges (relating to a letter he signed, preventing the the punishment of a US paedophile in 1985!) when he visits the UK this year...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100411...y-6323e80.html
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Old April 11 2010, 07:12 PM   #2
Roger Wilco
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

So?
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Old April 11 2010, 07:16 PM   #3
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Doesn't he have diplomatic immunity? He clearly represents a state.
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Old April 11 2010, 07:16 PM   #4
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Apparently in some attempt to prove that atheists fundies can be just as barking as religious fundies, and setting back the cause of rationalism by decades, Dawkins - and Chris Hitchens - intends to have the Panzerpope arrested on "crimes against humanity" charges (relating to a letter he signed, preventing the the punishment of a US paedophile in 1985!) when he visits the UK this year...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100411...y-6323e80.html
Actually, I see it more as an effort to get the head of the Catholic Church to stop protecting the Priests under his authority who commit acts of sexual molestation against thousands of children around the world. Instead of shining the light on their actions, the Pope is covering it up. That is a crime, and considering that it's children being molested, I would consider that a crime against humanity.

Dawkins probably knows it won't work, but this will generate even more awareness of the situation. The Pope needs to do something about it other than hide these men in other parishes where they can continue to molest children.
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Old April 11 2010, 07:22 PM   #5
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Axiom wrote: View Post
Instead of shining the light on their actions, the Pope is covering it up. That is a crime, and considering that it's children being molested, I would consider that a crime against humanity.

Dawkins probably knows it won't work, but this will generate even more awareness of the situation. The Pope needs to do something about it other than hide these men in other parishes where they can continue to molest children.
It's an interesting legal issue - Did the pope know that children were being molested in a particular case, and did he then take affirmative steps to avoid disclosure of such information to Law Enforcement after discovering such?

That could be, at a minimum, obstruction of justice, in the US system. Not sure about UK...
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Old April 11 2010, 07:22 PM   #6
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Marten wrote: View Post
Doesn't he have diplomatic immunity? He clearly represents a state.
Apparently Dawins thinks he can get around that because the Vatican is not a member of the UN. On first glance that seems like a questionable opinion to me, but I guess he looked into that.
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Old April 11 2010, 07:24 PM   #7
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Marten wrote: View Post
Doesn't he have diplomatic immunity? He clearly represents a state.
Well, that's what the link is about...
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Old April 11 2010, 07:34 PM   #8
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Defiant wrote: View Post
Axiom wrote: View Post
Instead of shining the light on their actions, the Pope is covering it up. That is a crime, and considering that it's children being molested, I would consider that a crime against humanity.

Dawkins probably knows it won't work, but this will generate even more awareness of the situation. The Pope needs to do something about it other than hide these men in other parishes where they can continue to molest children.
It's an interesting legal issue - Did the pope know that children were being molested in a particular case, and did he then take affirmative steps to avoid disclosure of such information to Law Enforcement after discovering such?

That could be, at a minimum, obstruction of justice, in the US system. Not sure about UK...
Under U.S. law it could be obstruction of justice, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, and aiding and abetting a criminal.

Under International Law:
Child sexual abuse is outlawed nearly everywhere in the world, generally with severe criminal penalties, including in some jurisdictions, life imprisonment or capital punishment.[158][159] An adult's sexual intercourse with a child below the legal age of consent is defined as statutory rape,[160] based on the principle that a child is not capable of consent and that any apparent consent by a child is not considered to be legal consent.
The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) is an international treaty that legally obliges states to protect children's rights. Articles 34 and 35 of the CRC require states to protect children from all forms of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse. This includes outlawing the coercion of a child to perform sexual activity, the prostitution of children, and the exploitation of children in creating pornography. States are also required to prevent the abduction, sale, or trafficking of children.[161] As of November 2008, 193 countries are bound by the CRC,[162] including every member of the United Nations except the United States and Somalia.[163][164]

So Dawkins may be able to actually do something in this case, if it is found the Pope has knowledge of the actions by any of these Priests. It is very likely the Pope does have knowledge of many of these offenses, and was a part of the move to redistribute these Priests to other parishes where they would be able to commit more acts of molestation against children. If so, I would like to see him taken to task for it. It is inexcusable.
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Old April 11 2010, 07:36 PM   #9
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

I would very much like to see that happen as well Axiom.
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Old April 11 2010, 07:38 PM   #10
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

While I'd love it if it happened it won't.
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Old April 11 2010, 07:39 PM   #11
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Sounds like fun. They should go for it, can't wait to see what happens
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Old April 11 2010, 07:40 PM   #12
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Marten wrote: View Post
Doesn't he have diplomatic immunity?
"It's just been revoked"
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Old April 11 2010, 08:04 PM   #13
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Pingfah wrote: View Post
Sounds like fun. They should go for it, can't wait to see what happens
Yes, because obviously the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't go for Catholics.

These propagandistic statements from loons like Dawkins are only worsened by the media's anti-Catholic agenda. And Dawkins is barking mad, blinded by his irrational hatred for anything smelling of religion.

Before spouting nonsense about the pope and his alleged knowledge about abuse cases, do some research: there is actually no evidence that Pope Benedict has been involved with any abuse cases. But since many media outlets are now incapable of doing independent and objective research, many people are unaware of this.

Research first, than draw conclusions.
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Old April 11 2010, 08:21 PM   #14
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Mark de Vries wrote: View Post
Pingfah wrote: View Post
Sounds like fun. They should go for it, can't wait to see what happens
Yes, because obviously the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't go for Catholics.

These propagandistic statements from loons like Dawkins are only worsened by the media's anti-Catholic agenda. And Dawkins is barking mad, blinded by his irrational hatred for anything smelling of religion.

Before spouting nonsense about the pope and his alleged knowledge about abuse cases, do some research: there is actually no evidence that Pope Benedict has been involved with any abuse cases. But since many media outlets are now incapable of doing independent and objective research, many people are unaware of this.

Research first, than draw conclusions.
Dawkins isn't "barking mad". Zealous? Yes, but not "barking mad". If it is found that the Pope had knowledge of these incidents, and was involved in getting those Priests moved to other parishes, where they could molest again, wouldn't you agree he should be held responsible for such?
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Old April 11 2010, 08:21 PM   #15
cultcross
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Re: Richard Dawkins has really flipped this time

Axiom wrote: View Post
Defiant wrote: View Post
Axiom wrote: View Post
Instead of shining the light on their actions, the Pope is covering it up. That is a crime, and considering that it's children being molested, I would consider that a crime against humanity.

Dawkins probably knows it won't work, but this will generate even more awareness of the situation. The Pope needs to do something about it other than hide these men in other parishes where they can continue to molest children.
It's an interesting legal issue - Did the pope know that children were being molested in a particular case, and did he then take affirmative steps to avoid disclosure of such information to Law Enforcement after discovering such?

That could be, at a minimum, obstruction of justice, in the US system. Not sure about UK...
Under U.S. law it could be obstruction of justice, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, and aiding and abetting a criminal.
The first two don't exist here. The third, I'd say it's wobbly at best. Even if we take the letter at total face value, that he was trying to stop the priest in question being defrocked despite knowing his criminal past, you'd have a hard time proving intent to aid and abet criminal action or evasion of justice. Being removed from the priesthood isn't a criminal sanction, so you can't 'aid and abet' someone to avoid that. You'd have to show that the then Cardinal intended to assist the priest in committing further crimes. A tough sell.

In fact, I'm racking my brains, and I can't think of a UK criminal sanction which applies to writing a letter suggesting a criminal not be fired. I may be missing something, but it's not coming to mind. Maybe a 'causing or allowing' offence relating to child sexual assault, but again the burden of proof of what the Cardinal was aware of or intended would probably render that unlikely.
Certainly Dawkin's hyperbolic 'crimes against humanity' is ludicrous. Heck, if we locked people up for not firing subordinates who broke the law, most of our cabinet (actual and shadow) would be indictable.
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