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Old May 21 2010, 07:14 AM   #511
The Super Brando
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

TOS is garbage and shouldn't be considered canon. It was only thought of as good because most other tv and film up to that point was even worse garbage.

Star Trek began with the movies, established its foundation with TNG, and reached its full potential with DS9.
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Old May 21 2010, 10:31 AM   #512
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

RandyS wrote: View Post
Yes, I've heard the story. I would be interested in Paramount (or Berman's) side of the story, but I don' think we've ever heard it.

Have we?
To my knowledge the only individual involved with DS9 to address the issue is Robert Hewitt Wolfe (one of the main DS9 writers for seasons 1-5), who answered the question online.

Q: Okay lets try to put an end to this controversy by Babylon 5 fans who keep insisting that DS9 stole its story ideas from that show. I love both series but it grates me to hear B5 fans constantly complain about this, especially considering that B5 actually had some plots and some story ideas and some character traits that were seen on DS9 first. Robert, how much of Babylon 5 did you and the rest of the writing team watch? Did you watch any of it at all? How do you feel about the charges leveled at you and the DS9 team by B5 fans?

A: We never watched B5. I still have barely seen any of it. And the charges of plagiarism are utter, complete, and vile b*llsh*t. Does that answer your question?

Last edited by flemm; May 21 2010 at 11:14 AM.
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Old May 21 2010, 02:06 PM   #513
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

^ I have only seen the pilot/movie "The Gathering" and first episode of season 1 of B5, but based on the overall setting of the show as seen there... What exactly did DS9 "rip off"?

It takes place on the space station? Okay...
The commander is a human male. A really, really rare thing in Science Fiction, obviously.
The second in command is a woman. Wow, what a novel idea! This is obviously a rip off, since women make up only half of the population.
There are some aliens on the station.
Some of the alien races have problems with each other because of their history. Wow, another amazing, unheard-of idea.

Well, obviously a rip-off.

What else is there? They are just both SF shows that take place on space station and feature a lot of politics. How many space operas take place on a starship, and are they all rip-offs of each other?

Not to mention that DS9 was based on the Bajoran/Cardassian situation - which was first established in TNG season 5, in 1991.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:03 PM   #514
RandyS
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
^ I have only seen the pilot/movie "The Gathering" and first episode of season 1 of B5, but based on the overall setting of the show as seen there... What exactly did DS9 "rip off"?

It takes place on the space station? Okay...
The commander is a human male. A really, really rare thing in Science Fiction, obviously.
The second in command is a woman. Wow, what a novel idea! This is obviously a rip off, since women make up only half of the population.
There are some aliens on the station.
Some of the alien races have problems with each other because of their history. Wow, another amazing, unheard-of idea.

Well, obviously a rip-off.

What else is there? They are just both SF shows that take place on space station and feature a lot of politics. How many space operas take place on a starship, and are they all rip-offs of each other?

Not to mention that DS9 was based on the Bajoran/Cardassian situation - which was first established in TNG season 5, in 1991.
And JMS claims to have come up with the B% story in 1987, which, I guess is possible.
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Old May 21 2010, 03:05 PM   #515
RandyS
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
DS9 and B5 are hardly the first sci-fi series set aboard space stations, so I don't see how either can be a ripoff of the other.
No, I don't either. Particularly since I've only ever heard one side of that story from the people involved.
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Old May 21 2010, 08:20 PM   #516
Warped9
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

The Super Brando wrote: View Post
TOS is garbage and shouldn't be considered canon. It was only thought of as good because most other tv and film up to that point was even worse garbage.

Star Trek began with the movies, established its foundation with TNG, and reached its full potential with DS9.
The only answer to this delusion is to the nth degree.
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Old May 21 2010, 08:51 PM   #517
Too Much Fun
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

While I don't exactly agree with the guy, I can see where he's coming from with that opinion. I got into TNG, Star Trek II & IV, and DS9 long before "Star Trek" and if I had to choose one to be wiped from existence between the four, it would be "Star Trek". I have liked and watched "Star Trek" very much for about two years now, but I think of it more as a nice novelty addition to the franchise, which I believe would do just fine without it.

I know that's a little weird since it was the whole catalyst for the franchise, but to me it's far from the franchise's peak. I was a huge Star Trek fan for many years without ever seeing the original series, and I think I still would have been if the movies and other shows had turned out the same way without it coming first. Without TNG, on the other hand, I don't think I'd have nearly as much reverence for Star Trek. The original series is fun and occasionally genuinely touching, but the other shows and the even numbered movies (except "Nemesis") are so much more resonant, sophisticated, and consistently written.
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Old May 21 2010, 09:17 PM   #518
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
but I think of it more as a nice novelty addition to the franchise, which I believe would do just fine without it.
I'm sure the rest of the franchise would be fine without the following:

The Starship Enterprise
Vulcans
Romulans
Klingons
United Federation of Planets
Starfleet
United Earth Space Probe Agency
Phasers
Photon Torpedoes
Transporters
Warp Drive
Zephram Cochrane
Andorians
Tellarites
Kang
Kor
Koloth
Montgomery Scott
Leonard McCoy
Spock
Dilithium Crystals
Psi 2000 virus
Saucer separation
Prime Directive
Number One
Cestus III
Orions
Orion Slave Girls
Pike City
Tribbles
The Starship Defiant

What is people's fascination with eliminating Star Trek from the franchise? Is it some type of jealously?
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Old May 21 2010, 10:54 PM   #519
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

QUOTE from Bill J: "What is people's fascination with eliminating Star Trek from the franchise? Is it some type of jealousy?"

Stylistically it doesn't fit post-1987 Trek. It is the minority (one series vs. 3 or 4). Its style is off-putting to many not raised with it.

OPINION: Spock should have stayed dead. My apologies if this is a repeat. It's a long thread.
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Old May 21 2010, 11:37 PM   #520
xortex
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

flemm wrote: View Post
RandyS wrote: View Post
Yes, I've heard the story. I would be interested in Paramount (or Berman's) side of the story, but I don' think we've ever heard it.

Have we?
To my knowledge the only individual involved with DS9 to address the issue is Robert Hewitt Wolfe (one of the main DS9 writers for seasons 1-5), who answered the question online.

Q: Okay lets try to put an end to this controversy by Babylon 5 fans who keep insisting that DS9 stole its story ideas from that show. I love both series but it grates me to hear B5 fans constantly complain about this, especially considering that B5 actually had some plots and some story ideas and some character traits that were seen on DS9 first. Robert, how much of Babylon 5 did you and the rest of the writing team watch? Did you watch any of it at all? How do you feel about the charges leveled at you and the DS9 team by B5 fans?

A: We never watched B5. I still have barely seen any of it. And the charges of plagiarism are utter, complete, and vile b*llsh*t. Does that answer your question?
Please, these guys get their ideas through the magical process of osmosis of inside information else there would be a paper trail and law suites and the like. How did I get this idea? It just came to me out of the blue. Somebody handed me a piece of paper. I don't know who it was.
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Old May 21 2010, 11:40 PM   #521
xortex
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

plynch wrote: View Post
QUOTE from Bill J: "What is people's fascination with eliminating Star Trek from the franchise? Is it some type of jealousy?"

Stylistically it doesn't fit post-1987 Trek. It is the minority (one series vs. 3 or 4). Its style is off-putting to many not raised with it.

OPINION: Spock should have stayed dead. My apologies if this is a repeat. It's a long thread.
The mediocre series want to get rid of the one great series that got them this far. Let them get their own universe if they're not happy with TOS.
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Old May 21 2010, 11:44 PM   #522
Warped9
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

Actually, thinking about it, I could accept TOS being separated from the rest of the rabble.
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Old May 21 2010, 11:51 PM   #523
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

I liked the scene with Spock's "pain" in TFF. Thought it gave the character a nice bookend--what his father said in disgust at his birth, his best friend said as a heartfelt tribute at his death.
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Old May 21 2010, 11:57 PM   #524
xortex
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Actually, thinking about it, I could accept TOS being separated from the rest of the rabble.

They're muddying the coattails of a legend.
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Old May 22 2010, 12:13 AM   #525
flemm
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Re: Unpopular Trek Opinions — What Are Yours?

BillJ wrote: View Post
What is people's fascination with eliminating Star Trek from the franchise? Is it some type of jealousy?
The opposite point of view is more common, at least that is the current trend: modern Trek is not fit to shine the boots of TOS, etc. That's probably why The Super Brando posted his opinion in the unpopular opinions thread

What motivates those who would like to excise modern Trek from the franchise? Is it some type of jealousy? More likely people just like what they like, and are most comfortable with whatever attracted them to the franchise in the first place.
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