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Old April 6 2010, 02:36 PM   #61
Lonemagpie
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Hm, I didn't mean to be quite as harsh as I sounded.
Me neither- like I say, I prefer the tone on here to certain other places!

I think it was more an expectations thing; I expected all the stories to give us a little more insight into the collective psyche, if you will, of each race, and I suppose that's already been done with the Ferengi enough (especially in The 34th Rule and the Worlds of DS9 Ferengi story) that there just might not have been much of a way to do that here. And I was never a fan of the way the Ferengi were used on the show in the first place; the Quark episodes were always my least favorite ones. I felt like they could've actually made the Ferengi into a legitimate culture, instead of just using them for comic farce all the time. Playing an entire society purely for laughs got a little annoying after a while. Your story definitely hit that same tone, which I agree isn't necessarily a bad thing, just not my cup of tea.
Oh, don't worry I get that- it's just that I was aware of the limitation of the Ferengi subgenre when writing it, and tried to get a balance between being true to it (because it is popular, and there I guess I succeeded) and doing something new (which I guess I didn't succeed for you)

Hope I wasn't too discouraging. I'd certainly be interested in seeing you return to TrekLit
Heh, if only I could mention-

But no, not yet. Later this week...

in a story that's more towards my sensibilities.
And mine! I was kind of surprised to be asked to do the Ferengi one - I think after On The Spot the editorial staff figured I could be a tongue-in-cheek go-to guy, whereas Dr Who readers will probably tell you I'm more a good villains and nasty action go-to guy...

Don't be put off that I responded - it's always good to know what works and what doesn't.
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Old April 6 2010, 02:37 PM   #62
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Lonemagpie--for what it's worth, I enjoyed your story and found the previous review too harsh. I wish I had time to explain better what I liked, but I definitely did.
Don't worry, I know exactly what Thrawn means - something you've built up expectations about and had them not lived-up to always seems worse than what you think of something that you came to cold.

I mean, everybody knows I hate Chakotay, but it's because I thought he showed the most promise in season 1 - which wasn't delivered upon.
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Old April 7 2010, 01:05 AM   #63
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

Well, personally, I ended up liking "Reservoir Ferengi" better than the episode it was based on.

I don't know why, but everyone raved about how wonderful "Business as Usual" was and I didn't get it...and honestly, I LIKE most Ferengi episodes. I think my problem with the episode was the fact that we didn't get the detailed explanation of the mentality behind it, whereas that WAS provided in your story.
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Old April 10 2010, 04:05 AM   #64
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

Just finished the book last night. Posting my thoughts directly without reading anybody else... I'll get to that later. So apologies if it's all been said before.

In general, very impressed. Some better than others, obviously, but that's always the way, and a very strong collection in total.

Romulans: "The First Peer" (Pride)
I had coincidentally just finished reading Summon the Thunder immediately prior, which had introduced me to Sarith, Anitra, Vrax and so on. So that was a nice surprise for me to pick right up. I enjoyed how the story tied together TOS, Vanguard, the movies and more while also filling a continuity hole (the short-lived Klingon-Romulan alliance) and hewing well to its theme of pride and hubris.

Ferengi: "Reservoir Ferengi" (Greed)
Again, a lot of fun. Dead-on characters, the very enjoyable idea of Brunt going slowly insane with his obsession over Quark while Quark just bobbles along quite happily, but also not shying away from the horrible consequences of their actions. Aww, poor Bijon! It managed the tricky feat of having fun with the Ferengi without making fun of them.

Cardassians: "The Slow Knife" (Envy)
Another continuity hole cleverly filled, and another tale excellently told. Garak's appearance was another delightful surprise (and don't tell me it wasn't Garak - that "plain and simple" line was undeniable). I just thought it was a good story until somebody mentioned the Setlik system, and I thought "Holy shit it's the Setlik Massacre!" And then when Enkoa said "I have sources outside the military," it was another "oh shit" moment as the whole thing opened up - I realized Garak had been talking to Enkoa too, and persuading him to attack. I was a little surprised that it was only one ship, and a small one at that, but hey whatever.

If I understand correctly, Garak's purpose was two-fold. First, he wanted to make sure the invasion of Setlik went ahead because Hanno was blocking it, and used Enkoa and Kein to make it happen. And second, he wanted to test the possibility of a leak in the Obsidian Order - if Enkoa didn't attack, that meant he knew it was only farming equipment not military equipment, and that meant there was a leak.

I do wonder though... O'Brien was involved in the Setlik Massacre. Garak knows that, as evidenced by his baiting him in "Empok Nor." But do you think Garak would ever admit his own involvement to O'Brien? On the one hand, no never - Garak does not let secrets out. But I wonder if, in the half-ruined emotional state he is in in "The Calling," Garak might want to divulge his sins in the hope of forgiveness?

Klingons: "The Unhappy Ones" (Wrath)
Though it may seem sacrilege to say it, I feel like this is where it started to slump a bit. Again, a nice hole filled, in which we learned how the lumpy and the smooth Klingons interact. But I just wasn't quite sure of the point of the whole thing, or how the assigned sin of Wrath applied to the situation. I didn't see Wrath leading to anyone's downfall especially. Sorkav certainly had a downfall, but it was racism that led to it. Anyway, it was nice to see Kor, Koloth and Kang's first meeting, and it was fun to see that the Klingon propoganda machine blames the Augment Virus for the war against the Federation. Has it been established how the virus was cured so that K, K & K got their foreheads?

Mirror Universe: "Freedom Angst" (Lust)
I suppose it really was all lust that drove this - Kira's lust for Sisko is what set the whole thing in motion. Another hole filled - how Sisko ended up on Terok Nor (on his way to not becoming Emissary). Trill sexual fluidity continues, and I'm very pleased that it was not restricted to titillating faux-lesbians this time. No Ferengis killed though - that breaks the tradition! One of the more middling stories that just didn't exite me all that much. Purely IMO of course. But it was good to see the MU's version of the Orion Syndicate.

Borg: "Revenant" (Gluttony)
One of the most terrifying horror stories I've ever read. Incredible work. Again though, I didn't think the Gluttony theme was especially well utilised. That's the trouble when you start metaphor-ificating the Sins - Greed, Gluttony and Lust all start to blend together and become muddy and ill-defined. I had also wondered - all the other stories had been written from the POV of the aliens in question. But how could you possibly write a story from the POV of a Borg? Well, whaddaya know - it was written from the POV of a Borg. They just didn't know they were Borg yet.

Other thoughts on this story here: http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3985496&postcount=6

Pakled: "Work Is Hard" (Sloth)
Another delight. Such a perfect distillation of the TNG standard. Even the Enterprise sections seemed to feed into the comedy. When you've got Geordi's first line being an entire paragraph of impenetrable technobabble, Worf saying "They have no honour!" about eight times and Troi's hilariously, brilliantly lame "Captain, we have to do something!," how can you not take that as making gentle joshing fun of some of TNG's worst cliches? We've all gotten used to these characters being much more fleshed out thanks to the Lit, but it was great fun to roll that back to when they were pointless and predictable exposition machines. (I just hope all of this was deliberate, or else I've just insulted the author horribly.) I do have to wonder how the Pakled culture can possibly work like that, but that's not Greg Cox's fault - it's "Samaritan Snare"'s.
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Old April 10 2010, 03:14 PM   #65
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
But I just wasn't quite sure of the point of the whole thing, or how the assigned sin of Wrath applied to the situation. I didn't see Wrath leading to anyone's downfall especially. Sorkav certainly had a downfall, but it was racism that led to it.
Isn't racism a kind of wrath? The dictionary defines wrath as "violent, resentful anger." Racism is resentful anger against people who aren't like you, and it often becomes violent.


Has it been established how the virus was cured so that K, K & K got their foreheads?
See Excelsior: Forged in Fire.
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Old April 10 2010, 06:16 PM   #66
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

Lvsxy808--Check your PM's. I just sent you some thoughts on the Pakled matter.
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Old April 10 2010, 08:22 PM   #67
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post

Pakled: "Work Is Hard" (Sloth)
Another delight. Such a perfect distillation of the TNG standard. Even the Enterprise sections seemed to feed into the comedy. When you've got Geordi's first line being an entire paragraph of impenetrable technobabble, Worf saying "They have no honour!" about eight times and Troi's hilariously, brilliantly lame "Captain, we have to do something!," how can you not take that as making gentle joshing fun of some of TNG's worst cliches? We've all gotten used to these characters being much more fleshed out thanks to the Lit, but it was great fun to roll that back to when they were pointless and predictable exposition machines. (I just hope all of this was deliberate, or else I've just insulted the author horribly.) I do have to wonder how the Pakled culture can possibly work like that, but that's not Greg Cox's fault - it's "Samaritan Snare"'s.

Hah! I confess that I wasn't deliberately trying to do a parody of TNG, but I did sit down and rewatch lots of old TNG eps before writing that story, so I probably reabsorbed all the old cliches as well! I'm always trying to capture the tone of whatever I'm adapting. Maybe this time I succeeded too well!

Fortunately, it was supposed to be a humorous story . . . .
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Old April 11 2010, 03:05 PM   #68
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Ferengi: "Reservoir Ferengi" (Greed)
Again, a lot of fun. Dead-on characters, the very enjoyable idea of Brunt going slowly insane with his obsession over Quark while Quark just bobbles along quite happily, but also not shying away from the horrible consequences of their actions. Aww, poor Bijon! It managed the tricky feat of having fun with the Ferengi without making fun of them.
Aww, ta!
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Old April 13 2010, 10:30 PM   #69
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

I found all of the stories to be entertaining with the exception of the alternate universe story. I dont know why but I just didnt click with this story at all. Perhaps I just dont like the alternate Sisko. I am not sure.

Oh yes before I forget one technological thing I caught in the Cardassian story. Early on they are being attacked and say they must fire the torpedoes blind since sensors are down.. A page later we find the the torpedoes have smart software programmed to find the silhouettes of thousands of enemy ships. Umm guess firing blind is not a problem if the torpedoes have sensors even when the ship doesnt.
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Old April 13 2010, 10:58 PM   #70
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Klingons: "The Unhappy Ones" (Wrath)
Though it may seem sacrilege to say it, I feel like this is where it started to slump a bit. Again, a nice hole filled, in which we learned how the lumpy and the smooth Klingons interact. But I just wasn't quite sure of the point of the whole thing, or how the assigned sin of Wrath applied to the situation. I didn't see Wrath leading to anyone's downfall especially.
The whole story was built around wrath. I wasn't trying to make it be a "downfall" exactly -- I wasn't taking the "deadly" part of the title as seriously, I guess -- but wrath drove the entire story. Krov toward Gahlar, Malvak toward both Sorkav and Gahlar after Krov was killed, the workers regarding how Malvak was treated, Kang toward Sorkav and Kobyk (and regarding the QuchHa' state), and so on. There was anger all over the place....


Anyway, it was nice to see Kor, Koloth and Kang's first meeting, and it was fun to see that the Klingon propoganda machine blames the Augment Virus for the war against the Federation.
Seemed a logical thing.


Has it been established how the virus was cured so that K, K & K got their foreheads?
As Christopher said, that was covered in Star Trek: Excelsior: Forged in Fire by Mssrs. Martin & Mangels.
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Old April 22 2010, 10:48 PM   #71
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

I finally got the book today! It was quite a wait, since it had been "temporarily out of stock" on amazon.co.uk for a long time...

So far I've just had the time to flip through the pages to see the 'historian's notes' to the stories. I have a question, the Borg story is supposed to be set "in early 2380 after the fall of the Romulan Star Empire (Star Trek Nemesis) and concurrent with the Enterprise (NCC-1701-E) encountering the former Starship Einstein (Star Trek: The Next Generation--Greater Than the Sum)." I haven't read any of the TNG relaunch books yet. Is it necessary to have read GTTS to be able to enjoy the story, or should I leave that one for later until I've read those TNG books?
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Old April 22 2010, 10:51 PM   #72
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

It actually works better if you haven't, in my opinion.
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Old April 23 2010, 12:25 AM   #73
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

I haven't read GREATER THAN THE SUM YET, but I found the Borg story nice and creepy.
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Old April 23 2010, 03:37 AM   #74
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Is it necessary to have read GTTS to be able to enjoy the story, or should I leave that one for later until I've read those TNG books?
Thrawn wrote: View Post
It actually works better if you haven't, in my opinion.
Well, then I'm out of luck...
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Old April 23 2010, 02:49 PM   #75
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Re: Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Well, that makes me feel... that I've totally failed, as there is definitely supposed to be new stuff to Reservoir Ferengi, in the sense of their attitude to war and violence, which hasn't been really been addressed in the show.
I thought you succeeded in showing something new there. It was intriguing to see that Brunt found killing morally repulsive, but for a very different set of moral reasons than a human would have. It reminds me of what Quark said to Sisko in "The Jem'Hadar" (I think) -- that for all humans' attitude of ethical superiority over the greedy, deceitful Ferengi, they've never been as violent or warlike as we've been in our history. And Brunt's attitude here helped illustrate why that is.

The big surprise was Brunt ending up with Pel, who represents something he's always despised. He's becoming far more like Quark than he could ever stand to admit.
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