Seven Deadly Sins Discuss/ Grade

[Lonemagpie]

ATimson wrote:

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Only about halfway through the volume - saving any reviews for the end. But I wanted to share my appreciation of David McIntee for the Huragok appearance in his story.

There are a lot of differences between a Huragok and Voloczin. He has more tentacles, moves by muscle power rather than gas bladder floating...

He's more a mix of octopoid alien references - an engineer like the Huragok, can be hostile like a Nakaleen Feeder, is described by the phrase Terrance Dicks always used for the Nestene in the Target novelizations...

[James Swallow]

Nerys Ghemor asked:

Where was Macet at the time? And beyond that, I especially wonder where Glinn Daro was. The way he was talking in "The Wounded" made me think he knew something very deep about the incident, and I find myself wondering what ship's crew you see him as being part of: Enkoa's, Relaw's, or one of the ships that came after? Or was he not present on the planet but just knew of it?

Macet could be anywhere; it's a big fleet. As for Daro, I imagined he'd be on one of the later ships sent out, perhaps involved in the ground conflict (referenced in "Empok Nor").

I'm curious, though, about the rank insignia--is this an indication that they're wearing the old-style uniform from "The Wounded"? I ask because I've never noticed the sigils on the standard black uniform.

Artistic licence, here. I pictured the older uniforms but with insignia added (which makes more sense to me).

Thanks for the comments!

[Nerys Ghemor]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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Considering how you don't like star trek humans - especially when you perceive them as arrogant - I find it interesting that you're such a devoted fan of the cardassians, whose arrogance dwarfs humans' by a wide margin.

I think the difference is that the Cardassians are honest about what they have become, and in the end, they are forced to confront it and see the truth for what it is. That is the thing that humanity has never had to do, in the Trekiverse--they're still in denial. It's easier for me to believe the Cardassians have potential.

And James--there were rank insignia on the old-style uniforms, placed in the inverted "spoon" shape on the uniform. I figured that's what you were referring to, and that (to me) was the tip-off that we were discussing the original uniforms.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cardassian_uniform

As to the new uniforms, I personally think the rank is indicated on them as well...but I personally think it's written, rather than indicated with insignia.

[ProtoAvatar]

Nerys Ghemor wrote:

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I think the difference is that the Cardassians are honest about what they have become, and in the end, they are forced to confront it and see the truth for what it is. That is the thing that humanity has never had to do, in the Trekiverse--they're still in denial. It's easier for me to believe the Cardassians have potential.

Humans are still in denial about what?
About being arrogant? The Federation is the least arrogant of the trekverse powers.

About being imperialists? They're demonstrably not.

About not following a moral code? The Federation follows morals to the point of appearing stupid or suicidal at times.
One could argue, though, that the moral code the 24th century Federation follows is, in part, atrocious - I'm talkinng, primarily, about the darwinian interpretation of the prime Directive.

As for the cardassians - they are arrogant and imperialists - and they were at no point in denial about this; they just consider it is their right to be so.

On-screen, they paid the full price for their arrogance and then some - but there's no evidence that they changed their mentality.
In the relaunch literature, the cardassians are, indeed, leaving behind this worldview - in part due to their losses in the war, in part due to Federation influence and in part due to their resurgent religion.


To conclude, neither humans nor cardassians were - or are - in denial about what they are.

[JD]

Nerys Ghemor wrote:

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I think the difference is that the Cardassians are honest about what they have become, and in the end, they are forced to confront it and see the truth for what it is. That is the thing that humanity has never had to do, in the Trekiverse--they're still in denial. It's easier for me to believe the Cardassians have potential.

And James--there were rank insignia on the old-style uniforms, placed in the inverted "spoon" shape on the uniform. I figured that's what you were referring to, and that (to me) was the tip-off that we were discussing the original uniforms.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cardassian_uniform

As to the new uniforms, I personally think the rank is indicated on them as well...but I personally think it's written, rather than indicated with insignia.

You do realize that the "human" story takes place in the mirror universe, right? So any complaints you have about Trek's portrayal of humanity probably won't apply.

[Nerys Ghemor]

Heh...the Mirror Universe, and what DS9 did with it, is a whole other thread.

As to what humanity is in denial about--their paradise could NEVER have happened without a steep price being paid. Something tells me there was some serious revisionist history that went on. As for human arrogance--it's a combination of arrogance and naivete, really, and it is an incredibly dangerous one: to believe that they are the moral arbiters of the universe, yet be so incredibly naive as to how the universe really works, and what the human(oid) nature REALLY is that so often they are unwilling to take a stand...it's pretty sad. Now, DS9 went a long way towards changing this, thank goodness.

When it comes to the Cardassians, I DO think we saw evidence that the change was beginning--through the leadership of Damar and Garak, individuals who both had to change tremendously in that final arc. I believe their chances of true reform are greater because they had a crisis that absolutely shattered everything. Humanity may require a similar crisis--hopefully not, but it's likely. It doesn't have to be a physical one...even a severe scandal or PR crisis could do it.

[ATimson]

Lonemagpie wrote:

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There are a lot of differences between a Huragok and Voloczin. He has more tentacles, moves by muscle power rather than gas bladder floating...

He's more a mix of octopoid alien references - an engineer like the Huragok, can be hostile like a Nakaleen Feeder, is described by the phrase Terrance Dicks always used for the Nestene in the Target novelizations...

Ah. My mistake. (Guess that's what I get for having never read any pre-New Series DW novels. )

[ProtoAvatar]

Nerys Ghemor wrote:

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Heh...the Mirror Universe, and what DS9 did with it, is a whole other thread.

As to what humanity is in denial about--their paradise could NEVER have happened without a steep price being paid. Something tells me there was some serious revisionist history that went on.

It's pretty clearly established how the trekverse human society came about - the third world war. Humanity DID pay a steep price, but no one else was involved and paid anything.

Revisionist history? At what period are you referring? Now you sound like a typical cardassian, letting envy speak.

As for human arrogance--it's a combination of arrogance and naivete, really, and it is an incredibly dangerous one: to believe that they are the moral arbiters of the universe, yet be so incredibly naive as to how the universe really works, and what the human(oid) nature REALLY is that so often they are unwilling to take a stand...it's pretty sad. Now, DS9 went a long way towards changing this, thank goodness.

Humans have morals and follow them - and they believe they have morals and follow them. Where's the arrogance in this?

"moral arbiters of the universe" - Quoting Dukat now?
As I said, humans follow their morals.
They forced no one else to do the same thing.
Did they try to convince others to accept their morals? Yes, but there's no coercion involved, no pressure - which makes all the difference.

"naive as to how the universe really works, and what the human(oid) nature REALLY is that so often they are unwilling to take a stand" - If you ask for help, the Federation will help you. If you don't want Federation interference, it won't interfere.
It's called NOT being imperialists. If the Federation would "take stands" - interfere - you'll call them imperialists.

When it comes to the Cardassians, I DO think we saw evidence that the change was beginning--through the leadership of Damar and Garak, individuals who both had to change tremendously in that final arc. I believe their chances of true reform are greater because they had a crisis that absolutely shattered everything. Humanity may require a similar crisis--hopefully not, but it's likely. It doesn't have to be a physical one...even a severe scandal or PR crisis could do it.

On-screen, the evidence is scarce - but better than for revisionist human history.
If we include literature - "the cardassians are, indeed, leaving behind this worldview - in part due to their losses in the war, in part due to Federation influence and in part due to their resurgent religion."

[ATimson]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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If you ask for help, the Federation will help you.

Except for when they feel it violates their precious Prime Directive.

[ProtoAvatar]

ATimson wrote:

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Except for when they feel it violates their precious Prime Directive.

If you ask for help, Federation intervention won't violate the prime directive.

[ATimson]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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If you ask for help, Federation intervention won't violate the prime directive.

The Prime Minister of Tezwa would disagree with you on that.

[Christopher]

^The rule is, if the legitimate government of a post-contact world requests non-military aid from the Federation, then the Prime Directive allows it (although there have been one or two tie-in works that have misunderstood this and claimed that even that was forbidden -- I think the Voyager novel The Garden is one). But if the request comes from some other faction, then helping them would be seen as meddling in the world's status quo, since it could shift the balance of power. So the PD says the request has to come from the legitimate government. And of course it can't be military assistance, not unless the world in question is a UFP ally protected by treaty and the threat comes from outside (as seen in TNG: "Redemption"; the PD forbade involvement in a Klingon civil war, but once it was proven that the Romulans were orchestrating a takeover and the threat was actually external, the PD ceased to apply).

[JWolf]

EmperorKalan wrote:

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Is your Table of Contents working? Something must have gotten bollixed up in the conversion to Kindle's format, because the TOC is just part of the front matter, and isn't functioning as a table of contents (where by clicking on a story title, it jumps you right to that story).

I know from a technical standpoint that is fixable, but let's hope it does get fixed.

The ePub edition has two ToC. The ePub's external and the eBook's internal ToC. Both do work fine on my Sony Reader. I've noticed that a lot of the recent Star Trek books in Mobipocket either have a ToC that doesn't work well or doesn't have a ToC. AZW is just Mobipocket with a slightly different DRM. So Kindle versions will have the same ToC troubles. Time to sell you Kindle and get a reader that supports ePub. The world is going ePub and the Kindle line will be left out/behind.

[Nerys Ghemor]

ProtoAvatar wrote:

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It's pretty clearly established how the trekverse human society came about - the third world war. Humanity DID pay a steep price, but no one else was involved and paid anything.

Revisionist history? At what period are you referring? Now you sound like a typical cardassian, letting envy speak.

The likely period of ignored/suppressed history spans through the latter half of the 21st century into the 22nd. Some of its effects may go through into the 23rd and beyond. The economic and ideological shift that occurred--the extreme uniformity we see in human thinking, aside from those who emigrated to breakaway colonies, suggests that those who held other viewpoints were either suppressed (by violence starting in the Post-Atomic Horror, or by force of law thereafter), or by extreme social pressure. Those who dissented, during this latter period, would have exiled themselves to colonies where they could operate outside the reach of the Federation.

As for envy? No, I do not envy Federation society. They have some nice things, but they can keep it to themselves. To claim tolerance towards aliens yet show intolerance towards dissenters in their own society--something doesn't add up, and I don't trust that.

Humans have morals and follow them - and they believe they have morals and follow them. Where's the arrogance in this?

"moral arbiters of the universe" - Quoting Dukat now?
As I said, humans follow their morals.
They forced no one else to do the same thing.
Did they try to convince others to accept their morals? Yes, but there's no coercion involved, no pressure - which makes all the difference.

Trek humans claim morals but follow political expediency, at least by the 24th century. (Wasn't quite as bad in the 23rd.) They claim to uphold rights, freedoms, and tolerance, but use the Prime Directive as an excuse to stand by and watch entire worlds and people die or suffer oppression.

Their attitude towards the Bajorans at the beginning is very telling (though this shifts over time): they see them as backwards, superstitious bumpkins, and make it their express goal to make Bajor a Federation member--maybe not by force, but certainly to apply pressure in that direction, because it was strategic territory near Cardassia and they wanted it.

Now THAT shifted over time, and thank goodness. But that's definitely how they started out.

"naive as to how the universe really works, and what the human(oid) nature REALLY is that so often they are unwilling to take a stand" - If you ask for help, the Federation will help you. If you don't want Federation interference, it won't interfere.
It's called NOT being imperialists. If the Federation would "take stands" - interfere - you'll call them imperialists.

Even when ASKED for help they often refuse. It's nowhere near as clearcut as you seem to think it is. I think "paternalistic" may be a more appropriate term than "imperialistic."

[ProtoAvatar]

@Nerys Ghemor

Do you have any evidence whatsoever about your conspiracy theory regarding 21/22nd century human history?

The third world war caused a massive shift in mentality - devastating wars tend to cause it.
Ironically, you claim that's exactly what's happening to cardassia after the dominion war, and consider it natural.
But in the case of humans, you claim this couldn't have happened because...there were people with other opinions? Well, there are cardassians with imperialist viewpoints - a LOT of them.

You don't envy trekverse humans? Your last two posts prove otherwise.


Trekverse humanity follows her morals - and there's nothing politically expedient about it. Ex - the federation didn't got involved in the klingon civil war, despite the fact that a Duras victory would be geopolitically devastating for the Federation.

Sisko had the mission to convince the bajorans to enter the Federation - but NOT by force, political or military. NOT through coercion. Through persuasion - which MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.
And I doubt you want to caompare the federation and the cardassian treatement of Bajor.

The Federation won't fight your wars - won't kill for you and won't send its citizens to death for you - unless you're an ally.
You calling humans hypocrite for this says more about your egocentrism and arrogance than it says about humanity's morals.

It's true that the 24th century prime directive, in certain cases, receives an atrocious interpretation (TNG homeward) - but the claim that trekverse humans don't follow their morals (as they are defined) has no support whatsoever.