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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old March 20 2010, 01:03 AM   #226
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

lawman wrote: View Post
stonester1 wrote: View Post
lawman wrote: View Post
Why should they start now? That would take a lot more effort than they put into this movie.
Doing what they see fit? I assure you, sir, that's just what they did. And I assure you they will do that again. Seems to have worked the first time. And if you choose not to vote with your own ducats, I think they'll be ok.

C'mon, smileys aside, you know where my snark was directed: Abrams, Orci & Kurtzman certainly did "what they saw fit" with Trek, but it didn't include telling a good story.

And I definitely won't be spending any of my "ducats" on any future films coming from this same writing/directing team.

stonester1 wrote: View Post
It's not about "cowboy diplomacy". It's letting things take their natural course in a timeline not his own.
But it's not a "natural course"... that's kind of the whole point of this debate. It's a course that has been altered in a very negative way.

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Even if he found a way to get back in time to the Narada's arrival, he would need untold resources in order to stop the change....

All of this reasoning and thinking, which Spock likely would have done, is simply too much technobable and explanation for the movie, and would not help the central story, but intsead would simply confuse the audience.
As I've discussed, Spock had far more information and resources at his disposal here than he's had for any of his previous time jaunts... and taking the risk of long odds when the stakes are worth it (e.g., saving billions) is one of the things he learned from a certain old friend.

That said, there's one thing where I have to acknowledge you're definitely right: "reasoning and thinking" is clearly something the filmmakers feared would "confuse" audiences, and therefore went out of their way to avoid in this story.
Okay then, lets talk about Spock's resources.

All he has, that he can count on, was the Jellyfish.

Okay, you still haven't explained to anyone exactly HOW he would set things right:

- Prevent the Narada from destroying the Kelvin in 2233.04.
- Prevent the Narada's technology from being dissected by other parties, especially the Klingons.
- Ensuring that Kirk and his Parents would survive.
- Obtain the means for Time Travel in a changed 2258.

Until you can present a realistic, viable plan, there is no way we can expect any screenwriter(s) to come up with something that would work.

Can you solve these puzzles without a Deus-ex-machina? With what Spock has with him on Delta Vega, what could he possibly use? HOW would he travel back? What would he do once he gets back to 2233?
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Old March 20 2010, 01:09 AM   #227
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

I was actually thinking that, if the Narada is partly Borg technology (indicated non-canonically), then blowing it up, particularly in close proximity to other starships, might be a very bad plan as well. Borg technology seems to have a knack for not going quietly.
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Old March 20 2010, 04:17 AM   #228
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I would say that I never assumed that the crew really did return to exactly the same timeline they'd departed from.
And especially "Yesteryear" (TAS), where Kirk and Spock end up in a reset timeline where Spock had died as a seven-year-old, and Amanda was killed in a shuttle accident after divorcing Sarek. Spock goes back in time alone, and returns to a future where his pet sehlat died many years earlier than originally. But he also left his Kirk behind in the timeline where Thelin the Andorian was first officer! (Or the Guardian of Forever somehow retrieved that Kirk at the right moment.)
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Old March 20 2010, 04:23 AM   #229
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Wow, I've been quoted by Therin and Greg Cox this week. In good ways. My reputation must be improving.

(is crazy sick with a flu)
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Old March 20 2010, 05:46 AM   #230
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Okay then, lets talk about Spock's resources...

You still haven't explained to anyone exactly HOW he would set things right...

Until you can present a realistic, viable plan, there is no way we can expect any screenwriter(s) to come up with something that would work.

Can you solve these puzzles without a Deus-ex-machina? With what Spock has with him on Delta Vega, what could he possibly use? HOW would he travel back? What would he do once he gets back to 2233?
Just to be clear here, I'm not suggesting that the first thing Spock should've done upon arriving in the Jellyfish was try to go further back in time, much less that he should have tried to do so from Delta Vega. I'm saying that once the movie's climax has passed, and he's revealed himself to 2258 Starfleet, then at that point he has all the knowledge and resources he could reasonably ask for to plan a trip back to 2233, head off the divergence, and save Vulcan.

As for a "realistic, viable plan," what you're really asking for there is the plot of a story, and it's not my responsibility to come up with that, it's the screenwriters'. Why you think we can't expect them to do their job, I don't know. I promise you, though: if you'll arrange to pay me what O&K got for this film, I'll cheerfully produce a story and screenplay all on my own.
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Old March 20 2010, 05:50 AM   #231
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Good dodge there.

Though, after the events of the movie he doesn't even have Red Matter or the resources of the Jellyfish. Not to say he couldn't recreate them (possibly), though I imagine that would take some time, especially given, at least at the start, the lower technology level.

Provided Spock grew attached to the people he was dealing with, he might think twice about pulling a Janeway...that is, destroying these people because -he's- not happy with how things turned out.
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Old March 20 2010, 06:02 AM   #232
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

lawman wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Okay then, lets talk about Spock's resources...

You still haven't explained to anyone exactly HOW he would set things right...

Until you can present a realistic, viable plan, there is no way we can expect any screenwriter(s) to come up with something that would work.

Can you solve these puzzles without a Deus-ex-machina? With what Spock has with him on Delta Vega, what could he possibly use? HOW would he travel back? What would he do once he gets back to 2233?
Just to be clear here, I'm not suggesting that the first thing Spock should've done upon arriving in the Jellyfish was try to go further back in time, much less that he should have tried to do so from Delta Vega. I'm saying that once the movie's climax has passed, and he's revealed himself to 2258 Starfleet, then at that point he has all the knowledge and resources he could reasonably ask for to plan a trip back to 2233, head off the divergence, and save Vulcan.

As for a "realistic, viable plan," what you're really asking for there is the plot of a story, and it's not my responsibility to come up with that, it's the screenwriters'. Why you think we can't expect them to do their job, I don't know. I promise you, though: if you'll arrange to pay me what O&K got for this film, I'll cheerfully produce a story and screenplay all on my own.
I don't see that as a given. Not at all. Everyone in Starfleet, and the Federation, would have a certain, shall we say, self-interest.

They would face the fact that the last 28 years of their lives, and possibly the existence of their children, would be in jeopardy should Spock succeed, or worse, fail.
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Old March 20 2010, 06:03 AM   #233
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Good dodge there.

Though, after the events of the movie he doesn't even have Red Matter or the resources of the Jellyfish. Not to say he couldn't recreate them (possibly), though I imagine that would take some time, especially given, at least at the start, the lower technology level.

Provided Spock grew attached to the people he was dealing with, he might think twice about pulling a Janeway...that is, destroying these people because -he's- not happy with how things turned out.
How many of those Admirals would have had children, or grandchildren?
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Old March 20 2010, 06:13 AM   #234
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

The cold-blooded reality is that we don't know that the Federation may not ultimately be better off in the Trek '09 timeline than they were in the previous one.

Heck, if the destruction of Vulcan ends up saving more lives than were snuffed out, the Vulcans themselves might argue that their planet's destruction was logical.
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Old March 20 2010, 11:17 AM   #235
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

lawman wrote: View Post
he could reasonably ask for to plan a trip back to 2233, head off the divergence, and save Vulcan.
So is he gonna warn Admiral Pike that, after Spock corrects the timeline, he's going to end up with a demotion, horrid facial scarring and no functioning larynx to go with his funky wheelchair?
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Old March 20 2010, 01:07 PM   #236
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

DonIago wrote: View Post
The cold-blooded reality is that we don't know that the Federation may not ultimately be better off in the Trek '09 timeline than they were in the previous one.

Heck, if the destruction of Vulcan ends up saving more lives than were snuffed out, the Vulcans themselves might argue that their planet's destruction was logical.
Or if not that, at least agreeing with the logic of not dallying with the timestream on their behalf.

Knowing that such a thing is possible doesn't make it wise. That you can do a thing doesn't mean you should. This conversation kinda reminds me of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, when Willow wanted to use magick to solve everyone's ills when she found out she could sometimes do so. She was warned against that attitude.

For good reason.

Again, Spock has experienced time travel, he has seen what can happen. If he has decided not to, it MUST be logical.
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Old March 21 2010, 07:20 AM   #237
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

One thing I don't like about some recent time-travel stories is the idea that the time-line "corrects" itself. It's an interesting thought to ponder and play with, but eventually it starts to smell of superstition and, well, eventually, cowardice.
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Old March 21 2010, 07:39 PM   #238
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Space Therapist wrote: View Post
there is real no indication that this movie takes places in a parallel universe which branches off from the original Star Trek universe.
That is implied by an analysis which takes into account the frame of reference of a hypothetical outside observer ( representing everyone who didn’t go back in time ) in 2387. Of course, this is really just another manifestation of the problematic nature of so-called “linear time”.
lawman wrote:
I'm saying that once the movie's climax has passed, and he's revealed himself to 2258 Starfleet, then at that point he has all the knowledge and resources he could reasonably ask for to plan a trip back to 2233, head off the divergence, and save Vulcan.
If such an idea is so important, how do we know Spock Prime didn’t do this later on in the Abrams timeline, when nearing the end of his life? Since it’s not something covered by the scope of the film in any event, how is this a valid criticism of STXI?
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Old March 21 2010, 07:57 PM   #239
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Arpy wrote: View Post
One thing I don't like about some recent time-travel stories is the idea that the time-line "corrects" itself. It's an interesting thought to ponder and play with, but eventually it starts to smell of superstition and, well, eventually, cowardice.
It really makes no sense science-wise, even in the context of highly speculative theories about How Time Travel Works. It's an invention of sci fi writers because it can make for an interesting story if the characters are struggling against fate, yet the entire universe seems dead set on thwarting them.

Where it doesn't work: as a cheap cop-out to get the writers easily to the Reset Button. The universe should work against the characters, not coddle them!

The reason Spock doesn't time travel to save Vulcan: he's in a new reality, not his own. If he time travels within this new reality to save Vulcan, he's not saving "his" Vulcan.

So Spock has no personal motive for saving that particular planet. Why not spend that same time and effort, say, to stop that Doomsday Machine from gobbling up countless planets? He should be able to figure out where and when the Doomsday was, when it was stopped in his old reality. He can extrapolate backwards to figure out its path. Stopping it years earlier will save countless lives. Spock has got a full plate just stopping future calamities, never mind going to all the trouble to time travel.
So is he gonna warn Admiral Pike that, after Spock corrects the timeline, he's going to end up with a demotion, horrid facial scarring and no functioning larynx to go with his funky wheelchair?
This new reality already has significant variations from Spock's original reality that it's possible Pike will never suffer those injuries. Spock should debrief Starfleet fully on his own reality, but with the clear caveat that the two realities already differ (older Spock's presence for starters) so all bets are off as to specifics.

There's probably a Doomsday Machine still out there somewhere, but even that might not be true. We don't know for certain that the sole point of divergence happened during the Narada's initial introduction into this reality. Maybe it was already different in other, unnoticed, ways. It's a big universe.
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Old March 21 2010, 08:02 PM   #240
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Re: Why doesn't Spock Prime go back in time to save Vulcan?

Exactly.
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