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Old December 12 2013, 10:39 PM   #211
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Civilization V

I don't think I've built trading posts outside of puppet cities since G&K, so I don't think that's the fair standard to judge whether trade routes make money too easy. In reality, I think it makes money much more problematic in the beginning and much easier at the end. But it also makes your financial situation much more perilous. A warmonger or someone who neglects to deal with barbarians could end up with very little income very quickly. Overall, I think it adds a nice dynamic to the game, though, that makes up for this.

I generally use spies to get the city-states I want with cash supplements by that point, so more money doesn't change that equation that much.
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Old December 15 2013, 03:21 PM   #212
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Re: Civilization V

After completing a second game, I'm definitely coming around to the idea that excess money might be a problem. By the end of this game I had a huge upgraded army, most improvements constructed in all my cities, yet I was still earning roughly 250 GPT and had a stockpile of 16,000 gold. I have never done that well economically before. But at the same time, I was pursuing a strategy I've never tried before, so that might be the reason why. I had heavy reliance on city state allies (I had around 10 for much of the game) which caused me to experience happiness levels I'm not used to, resulting relatively frequent golden ages. On top of that, I was playing as Portugal, another Civ that gets boosts for trade routes, and I maxed out the Commerce tree, which isn't something I usually do.

This game was fun because it showed me the opposite side of the ideology mechanic. Instead of being part of the dominant ideological faction like in my first game, this time I was the lone adopter of Freedom while 7 other civs adopted Order. I went from being a small, influential trading civ with good relations with my neighbours to a political pariah that was desperately trying to placate my neighbours to avoid a war. I built up a huge army to deter the communist hoards, which means I finally understand the US. Thankfully, the other civs focused on Zulu, the sole Autocratic state, and he managed to hold out even with Gandhi nuking his cities. I avoided war long enough to reach the first vote for world leader, and used most of that 16,000 gold I mentioned to buy off the remaining city states and win a diplomatic victory.
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Old December 16 2013, 01:41 PM   #213
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Re: Civilization V

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
After completing a second game, I'm definitely coming around to the idea that excess money might be a problem. By the end of this game I had a huge upgraded army, most improvements constructed in all my cities, yet I was still earning roughly 250 GPT and had a stockpile of 16,000 gold. I have never done that well economically before. But at the same time, I was pursuing a strategy I've never tried before, so that might be the reason why. I had heavy reliance on city state allies (I had around 10 for much of the game) which caused me to experience happiness levels I'm not used to, resulting relatively frequent golden ages. On top of that, I was playing as Portugal, another Civ that gets boosts for trade routes, and I maxed out the Commerce tree, which isn't something I usually do.

This game was fun because it showed me the opposite side of the ideology mechanic. Instead of being part of the dominant ideological faction like in my first game, this time I was the lone adopter of Freedom while 7 other civs adopted Order. I went from being a small, influential trading civ with good relations with my neighbours to a political pariah that was desperately trying to placate my neighbours to avoid a war. I built up a huge army to deter the communist hoards, which means I finally understand the US. Thankfully, the other civs focused on Zulu, the sole Autocratic state, and he managed to hold out even with Gandhi nuking his cities. I avoided war long enough to reach the first vote for world leader, and used most of that 16,000 gold I mentioned to buy off the remaining city states and win a diplomatic victory.
In my second to last game, I played Venice, and also tried for the diplomatic victory. Unfortunately, there was a sort of city state carnage, and in the end there were to few to get a diplomatic victory relatively early, so I just tried to keep the game going until I had accumulated enough delegates via getting the most votes. I fell a few turns short, as Russia won a cultural victory five turns before I would have won. But during this time, being Venice, who has the double amount of trade routes, I was making a vast amount of cash. I had a large fleet, a decent upgraded army, and purchased buildings I didn't even need. Still, I couldn't really get below 30k gold in the bank. Money which couldn't buy me anything. Sort of annoying.
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Old December 16 2013, 01:50 PM   #214
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Civilization V

I do think it would be interesting if gold let you do other things late in games. The fact that you have so much to spend on CS is somewhat unfortunate because they made such an effort so you wouldn't be dependent on buying CS in order to get Diplo victory.

I do think the total amount of gold earned in a game probably isn't dramatically different. It's just that you earn far less in the beginning and far more towards the end. Early gold rush strategies technically pay off more than anything you'd purchase at the end of the game, but this is only part of the equation when it comes to balancing gold.
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Old December 16 2013, 03:37 PM   #215
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Re: Civilization V

If you go down the freedom tree, yopu can actually buy space ship parts.
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Old February 5 2014, 02:27 AM   #216
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Re: Civilization V

In case anyone is interested, there's a Humble Sid Meier Bundle on sale right now. You can get Civ III Complete, Civ IV Complete, Civ V and the two expansions, Railroads!, and the two Ace Patrol games all for $15. It doesn't include the small Civ V DLC such as the additional civilisations, but it's still an amazing deal.

Since I already have the Civ V stuff, I just paid a dollar for the basic deal, mainly so that Civs 3&4 would be added to my Steam account, but Ace Patrol and Railroads! seem like fun.
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Old February 13 2014, 02:37 PM   #217
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Re: Civilization V

Four different times I've played Civ V since it came out, and I've had four different experiences. The current expansion is the only one I've found enjoyable. There is now an actually strategy game here, woot! I was able to plan and carry out stratagems and such! Granted no matter what victory path I chose, the strategy was always murder my strongest rival, but hey,... progress.
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Old February 13 2014, 03:02 PM   #218
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Civilization V

The game rewards not going to war more than in the past. Although the AI will never be better at you in combat, staying peaceful (or, more accurately, managing diplomacy if you go to war) is a viable strategy.

Anyone play Conquest of the New World deluxe edition yet?
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Old February 13 2014, 05:58 PM   #219
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Re: Civilization V

^^^ The previous war deterrence, boredom, was pretty effective.

The new one made for interesting situations. In my pursuit of a culture victory, I shared a border with Songhai and my chief rival Egypt. Songhai tried to conquer Egypt first, but lost bad and was swallowed whole. So later on, when I couldn't stand the sighs of happiness and contentment coming from the Egyptian people any longer, I launched an invasion, razing their cities to improve happiness, and taking their capital in Thebes.
Then I swung back, 'liberated' Gao, and all my brutality and genocide was justified to the world. Even the to few Egyptian cities I left standing! "Thank you for freeing the monster that tried to enslave us, Casimir!" they practically shouted
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Old February 14 2014, 06:30 PM   #220
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Re: Civilization V

I got the humble bundle and while there is a great game hiding in there somewhere, currently it is only good. The AI is designed to start a war no matter what at some point.

I played a game the other night with absolute and total peace until the 20th century. It was basically just a cycle of renewing vows of friendship and having 6 other leaders pop up to tell me how great it is that we all get along, when out of nowhere Bismark declares war on Songhai. My mutual defense pact meant I had to attack him, but because I hadn't denounced him I got a ding with all the other nations and when I took the cities between him and Songhai in order to calm them both down I was suddenly a warmonger with everyone else, who then started denouncing me and everyone else and the entire world devolved into a war-torn mess.
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Old February 15 2014, 04:01 PM   #221
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Re: Civilization V

Venardhi wrote: View Post
I got the humble bundle and while there is a great game hiding in there somewhere, currently it is only good. The AI is designed to start a war no matter what at some point.
It's a game that claims to represent the last 6,000 years of human history, it would be absurd if there wasn't a war at some point. If your criticism is that it's impossible for the player to stay out of conflict for the duration of a game, that's not true, I've done it several times. Just build up a decent military, don't make any declarations of friendship unless absolutely necessary, and keep an eye on the other civs. So long as you're not bordering a crazy warmonger like Montezuma, it should be possible to avoid attacks.

I took the cities between him and Songhai in order to calm them both down I was suddenly a warmonger with everyone else, who then started denouncing me and everyone else and the entire world devolved into a war-torn mess.
I agree that the warmonger system is a little dumb and doesn't take proper account of defensive wars. Personally, I think Civ VI should adopt the diplomacy system of the Europa Universalis games. If you capture a city, you wouldn't automatically annex it, but could choose to keep it when negotiating peace terms. If you don't want a warmonger penalty, let your enemy keep the city and demand gold reparations instead.
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Old February 17 2014, 02:00 PM   #222
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Re: Civilization V

If you look at some of the things that can turn other civs against you the list reads a lot of things that are just the result of you playing the game. "They covet your territory", "they covet wonders you have built", "you are spreading a different religion", "you have chosen a different ideology" "you are competing for favor of a city state", etc. Several times already I have found myself in between two or three civs with all of them slowly turning against me for one reason or another, no matter how much I try to isolate myself and reassure them. If I stay well armed for fear of an attack they ask if I'm planning to attack them, if I don't move my units away from their borders I'm called a liar, if I defeat every enemy that enters my territory we often remain at war indefinitely until I retaliate and capture or destroy some of their cities and stongarm them into a treaty, which assures continued war with them or the other AI civs in future rounds.

I'm not saying war shouldn't be a factor, just that it should be avoidable and there should be more of a conversation had with the AI leading up to it. "Come my friend, Embrace my faith and leave your heathen gods behind, they can only come between us." "Your heretical faith is an affront to my people and they will not stand for it. You must convert or I shall be forced to cut ties with you." "My people cry out for holy war against your lands, submit to our prophets or be destroyed." etc. I just want them to feel more like rival nations and not a random number generator that only ever gets angrier and angrier at me.
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Old February 17 2014, 05:15 PM   #223
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Re: Civilization V

You know, guys, you can also just disable war entirely. That may be cheating, but if you really want a game without war, that's how ya do it.

I like the challenge of raising up a totally peaceful culture in a war-torn world, though. I can usually get quite far into the game without going to war with anyone (or anyone going to war with me), because I build up a technological and cultural powerhouse and just enough military units to keep people from messing with me. If anyone does end up starting shit, I stomp the crap out of them until they beg my forgiveness.
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Old February 17 2014, 06:27 PM   #224
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Re: Civilization V

Note: I'm not sure what version you're playing - if you have Gods and Kings, or Brave New World - both expansions introduced some differences to diplomacy, so what I say next may not apply. I have everything up to BNW, so...

Venardhi wrote: View Post
If you look at some of the things that can turn other civs against you the list reads a lot of things that are just the result of you playing the game. "They covet your territory", "they covet wonders you have built", "you are spreading a different religion", "you have chosen a different ideology" "you are competing for favor of a city state", etc.
Yeah, I get those in the early game too. The key is to try and make friends with at least one civ. Then they're more willing to overlook some of the minor negative points like the wonder thing or the city state influence. In my current game as Venice, I had neutral status with everyone. Some positive points, some negative points. So I made a few trades of spare resources. But the big turning point was when I liberated an Indonesian settler from the barbarians (+ points). A few turns later, they came to me with a Declaration of Friendship. Which gave me + points with the Netherlands since they were friends. Sure enough, several turns later, the Netherlands came to me with a DoF too. After that happened, the city-state influence and wonders negative points from both of them went away.

Long story short, find a way to make a friend.

(On the flip side, both China and Germany are now friendly to me too, and I have no idea why since they're not friends with anyone else and I haven't done much with them.)

If I stay well armed for fear of an attack they ask if I'm planning to attack them, if I don't move my units away from their borders I'm called a liar,
Yeah... don't keep units on their borders. If they call you out on it and you say that you'll move them away, that pretty much locks you out from war for a long time otherwise you'll get negative points for breaking a promise.

if I defeat every enemy that enters my territory we often remain at war indefinitely until I retaliate and capture or destroy some of their cities and stongarm them into a treaty, which assures continued war with them or the other AI civs in future rounds.
Defeat their units but try to avoid taking their cities. In BNW, the warmongering changed so that it is based on taking cities. More than that, it's relative to the size of the target. So if you take 1 city out of 10, it won't be as bad as taking 1 city out of 1. And you can reduce or eliminate the warmonger penalty by liberating cities that your target civ took from others (city-states, other civs, etc).

At least, that's how I understand it from reading several threads on the subject on CivFanatics.
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Old February 18 2014, 06:54 PM   #225
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Re: Civilization V

Venardhi wrote: View Post
If you look at some of the things that can turn other civs against you the list reads a lot of things that are just the result of you playing the game. "They covet your territory", "they covet wonders you have built", "you are spreading a different religion", "you have chosen a different ideology" "you are competing for favor of a city state", etc.
All of those factors have been the basis of real wars throughout human history and the game is reflecting that. What's more, it's all part of the strategy of the game. Building a city on desirable land, spreading your religion into other civs, and bribing city states are all actions which come with advantages, but are you willing to risk your good relations with your neighbours to do them? This isn't SimCity, you're not operating in a vacuum, balancing your needs with your neighbour's concerns is what Civilization games have always been about.

I'm not saying war shouldn't be a factor, just that it should be avoidable
War is avoidable in most cases, but avoiding war might make your ultimate victory more difficult. Or it might require a sacrifice of gold or resources. It's not always easy to avoid war, but that's as it should be.
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