Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? - Page 6

February 19 2010, 12:25 AM

You are in very dangerous territory if one day you happened to find yourself contemplating genocide because you thought you had a good excuse for it. Inevitably something unplanned happens. A deadlier threat emerges, or everybody gets killed anyway but in different circumstances, or you become so corrupt that people try to kill you.

Rush Limborg · February 19 2010, 02:59 AM

^Inevitable?

MeanJoePhaser · February 19 2010, 03:17 AM

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

The salt vampire was different. That was only one creature. Sure, it was the last of its kind...

Not in JJ Arbamsverse, they are on Rura Penthe!

How a mind-affecting creature could be held prisoner so easily...I dunno, but I lack JJ's vision. And his money.

I'd rather have the money.

JediKnightButler · February 19 2010, 03:41 AM

Here's some interesting food for thought. Although I'm not sure there is a direct link (and none was ever inferred) but does anybody else think that there might have been a connection between Hugh's development of "individuality" and the eventual existence of Unimatrix Zero- which ultimately helped undermine the Borg (although it would've nice to have actually seen what happened to the "awake" Borg post-Unimatrix Zero Parts 1 & 2?)

Admiral Shran · February 19 2010, 06:38 AM

butlerd wrote:

Here's some interesting food for thought. Although I'm not sure there is a direct link (and none was ever inferred) but does anybody else think that there might have been a connection between Hugh's development of "individuality" and the eventual existence of Unimatrix Zero- which ultimately helped undermine the Borg (although it would've nice to have actually seen what happened to the "awake" Borg post-Unimatrix Zero Parts 1 & 2?)

I think it was established in "Descent, Part II" that Hugh's "individualized" Borg were cut off from the Collective by the time Lore found them. If the Borg cut them all off, I doubt they would have able to give rise to Unimatrix Zero.

RobertScorpio · February 21 2010, 08:34 AM

Admiral Shran wrote:

butlerd wrote:

Here's some interesting food for thought. Although I'm not sure there is a direct link (and none was ever inferred) but does anybody else think that there might have been a connection between Hugh's development of "individuality" and the eventual existence of Unimatrix Zero- which ultimately helped undermine the Borg (although it would've nice to have actually seen what happened to the "awake" Borg post-Unimatrix Zero Parts 1 & 2?)

I think it was established in "Descent, Part II" that Hugh's "individualized" Borg were cut off from the Collective by the time Lore found them. If the Borg cut them all off, I doubt they would have able to give rise to Unimatrix Zero.

Oh, they could have found some way around that. But that would have required "continuity", a big no/no behind the scenes at voyager.

Rob

Anwar · February 21 2010, 02:16 PM

And anyways, all of Hugh's individualized Borg were supposed to have never been individuals before: They were the Borg babies we saw in "Q Who?". The Unimatrix Zero Borg were all assimilated ones, and Unimatrix Zero seemed to only apply to them (the leftovers of their individuality fighting against the Collective).

JediKnightButler · February 21 2010, 05:16 PM

Anwar wrote:

And anyways, all of Hugh's individualized Borg were supposed to have never been individuals before: They were the Borg babies we saw in "Q Who?". The Unimatrix Zero Borg were all assimilated ones, and Unimatrix Zero seemed to only apply to them (the leftovers of their individuality fighting against the Collective).

How do we know that Hugh, et. al were the Borg babies we saw in "Q-Who"? I realize, of course, anything is possible, however. In regards to a possible connection between "I, Borg" and "Unimatrix Zero", there probably is no real connection but I thought it was interesting how both episodes deal with Borg individuality. It's too bad there was never any follow up with Hugh OR the "Borg resistance" from Voyager. I was at least thinking that the "Borg resistance" might show up in "Endgame" and help the Voyager crew out but, of course, they did not.

Mr. Laser Beam · February 21 2010, 05:21 PM

RobertScorpio wrote:

But read my question CLOSER. If Q was able to guarentee that WW2 would not happen, at all, would you do it. If he took you to Stalins house when he was a baby and offered you a "two for the price of one" deal, and total peace would come to Earth, would you take the life of those two or not?

No, because killing babies is always wrong. I don't care who they will grow up to be.

And besides, why should I trust Q?

Rush Limborg · February 21 2010, 07:10 PM

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

RobertScorpio wrote:

But read my question CLOSER. If Q was able to guarentee that WW2 would not happen, at all, would you do it. If he took you to Stalins house when he was a baby and offered you a "two for the price of one" deal, and total peace would come to Earth, would you take the life of those two or not?

No, because killing babies is always wrong. I don't care who they will grow up to be.

And besides, why should I trust Q?

Good point here. You don't know what a baby will grow up to be--which is why it's always "better safe than sorry".

Mr. Laser Beam · February 21 2010, 07:13 PM

^ And it's likely that even if you do kill Hitler or Stalin or whoever, someone else will take his place. You could go back in time, kill Hitler, then come back and hear "Why didn't you kill Whiffenberger like we asked you to?" or something like that.

USS KG5 · February 24 2010, 05:44 PM

RobertScorpio wrote:

So, I will mark both your answers down as no.

But read my question CLOSER. If Q was able to guarentee that WW2 would not happen, at all, would you do it. If he took you to Stalins house when he was a baby and offered you a "two for the price of one" deal, and total peace would come to Earth, would you take the life of those two or not?

Rob

To quote Boris Johnson "If we had some Ham we could have some Ham and Eggs, if we had any Eggs..."

The Straw Man approach doesn't help.

Renvar · February 25 2010, 09:31 PM

This is an argument that will live in infamy in the Trek universe. In this case, there is no question in my mind that Picard made the right decision under the circumstances. Let me say that again. Under the circumstances. The threat to Earth, for the time being, had been averted. Borg activity was negligible; a Cube wasn't lurking around every nebula. At this point, Picard was faced with a decision. But there are many variables to the decision that are not easily noticed because of the nature of the story.

For one thing, there is no direct evidence to suggest that the paradox virus would have resulted in the destruction of the Borg. Sure, Data and Geordi put on a good presentation when they unveil it to Picard, but really, they expect us to believe that after only a few encounters with the Borg they've managed to circumvent every anti-virus technology they posess? For all we know, all this virus would have done is make the the Borg that much more interested in assimilating us, since we came up with such an inventive form of resistance. A fleet of Cubes assimilate Earth, and we all trash Picard for ever considering using the virus. I'm not saying it would have happened this way, but considering what we know of the Borg now and especially the insatiable nature of the Queen, you have to admit it's a possibility.

As to those that posed the hypothetical scenario of "If the Borg were in our solar system and the virus was our only chance to stop them", I would say yes, absolutely. Under those circumstances, we have nothing to lose. But you have to remember, those are different variables than what was going on in I, Borg.

Also, consider Nachayev's position. She's as much a politician as she is a Starfleet officer, that much is clear. When she tore into Picard in Decent, she was more than likely taking out the stress she felt from her superiors on Earth who just wanted the whole Borg threat to quietly die. If the Hugh incident had occurred prior to Wolf 359, I would not be surprised in the least if she had a very different attitude about Picard's decision.

Mojochi · March 7 2010, 04:28 PM

In 6 pages, I've not seen anyone write what I think. So I'll write it. They were ALL wrong. Picard, Crusher, Nachayev, everybody....... except Worf, & the tragic thing is, that Picard knew it. Worf's suggestion was to kill it, & make it look like it had died in the crash. That's a true security man talking, right there

You do that, only if you think you can unequivocally leave no trace behind. (Which they could probably accomplish) Otherwise, you just leave well enough alone, & disappear. Picard knew, just like Worf, that the thing should never have been brought on board. Crusher let her Hippocratic oath get in the way, & the rest is history. (You're an officer too, Doc) It was dying when they got there, anyway. Maybe conduct a quick investigation to discern how & why it crashed, just to be certain that it wasn't somehow connected to you or yours.... Then, get lost!

The suggested invasive virus? Just provocation. No evidence, beyond Geordi's observations of Hugh, to irrefutably prove it would work, & solid logic suggesting that, were it unsuccessful, it would provoke the Borg, into another attack, which had been conspicuously on hold for quite some time, short of a 5 unit scout cube. The likely reason for that standoff, was the Enterprise crew's rather ingenious defensive stand at Earth, in BoBW

The Hugh-borne individuality virus? Also provocation! When the Borg had to cut links with Hugh's mothership, it would have likely provoked them. It could easily have been the catalyst for the Borg mounting their rather unconventional attack, on Earth & then its time line, in 1st Contact

Starfleet's position has always been that they will not start a war. That's not just because of some ideological love of all lifeforms, but from a more practical understanding that fighting wars gets your people killed, & jeopardizes your way of life. So, why on Earth, would you want to deliberately provoke the bloody BORG, under any circumstances? Fear! No Sir! You leave that bastard dying right where he is, & if you can help him get dead quicker, with out any endangerment, then, by all means do so, but whatever you do, don't go getting your nuts in a sling.

The irony is, that Worf's abruptly dismissed suggestion seemed either overly simplistic, or unacceptably dispassionate, at the time. There are times, when simplicity & dispassion are worthwhile attributes. That was one of them. I'd have had Worf & Riker drag her from the site. Let her bitch, if she wants. Write a formal protest. It'll make good fodder for an admiral's trash file

SpyOne · March 7 2010, 06:48 PM

My 2 cents:
As Picard pointed out, Hugh was not a Borg anymore. He used personal pronouns. He refused an order from Locutus, which should have been impossible.

While it might be permissible to infect a Borg drone with a virus that would hopefully kill the collective(or most of it, anyway), doing so to some random stranger is totally out.
There was an episode of Voyager where some people had genetically engineered a child as a weapon against the Borg, with the plan being that the Borg would assimilate him and the disease he carried would attack the collective, and the reaction of the Starfleet folks was not "Cool! Wish we'd thought of that," it was horror, and "How could you do that to a child?"
Note that it was important that the child not know he was a weapon, since when he got assimilated the collective would learn everything he knew.

Hugh was an individual, and no longer a Borg. It would be horribly wrong to use him against the Borg against his will or without his permission, and if he knows what you are planning it won't work.

If Admiral Nacheyev was so sure that Picard's plan was the right thing to do, why not develop the virus and infect some random Vulcan you kidnapped, then dump him somewhere the Borg are sure to find him. Because that would be wrong.
Admiral Nacheyev believes Picard should have gone ahead because she does not believe that Hugh was no longer a Borg.

For that reason, I do not believe Picard was wrong. Hugh was no longer a Borg drone, he was an individual, he use personal pronouns, he recognized Picard as Locutus and still refused an order from him. Hugh was not a Borg.

February 19 2010, 12:25 AM	#76
Mr Troi Guest	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? You are in very dangerous territory if one day you happened to find yourself contemplating genocide because you thought you had a good excuse for it. Inevitably something unplanned happens. A deadlier threat emerges, or everybody gets killed anyway but in different circumstances, or you become so corrupt that people try to kill you.

February 19 2010, 02:59 AM	#77
Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Location: The EIB Network	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? ^Inevitable? __________________ "I have been wounded but not yet slain. I shall lie here and bleed awhile. Then I shall rise and fight again." "Forget it, Jake...it's Chinatown."

February 19 2010, 03:41 AM	#79
JediKnightButler Captain Location: Indianapolis, Indiana	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? Here's some interesting food for thought. Although I'm not sure there is a direct link (and none was ever inferred) but does anybody else think that there might have been a connection between Hugh's development of "individuality" and the eventual existence of Unimatrix Zero- which ultimately helped undermine the Borg (although it would've nice to have actually seen what happened to the "awake" Borg post-Unimatrix Zero Parts 1 & 2?)

February 21 2010, 02:16 PM	#82
Anwar Vice Admiral Location: Regina, SK, Canada	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? And anyways, all of Hugh's individualized Borg were supposed to have never been individuals before: They were the Borg babies we saw in "Q Who?". The Unimatrix Zero Borg were all assimilated ones, and Unimatrix Zero seemed to only apply to them (the leftovers of their individuality fighting against the Collective).

February 21 2010, 07:13 PM	#86
Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Location: The visitor's bullpen	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? ^ And it's likely that even if you do kill Hitler or Stalin or whoever, someone else will take his place. You could go back in time, kill Hitler, then come back and hear "Why didn't you kill Whiffenberger like we asked you to?" or something like that. __________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

February 25 2010, 09:31 PM	#88
Renvar Lieutenant Commander Location: Anchorage, AK	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? This is an argument that will live in infamy in the Trek universe. In this case, there is no question in my mind that Picard made the right decision under the circumstances. Let me say that again. Under the circumstances. The threat to Earth, for the time being, had been averted. Borg activity was negligible; a Cube wasn't lurking around every nebula. At this point, Picard was faced with a decision. But there are many variables to the decision that are not easily noticed because of the nature of the story. For one thing, there is no direct evidence to suggest that the paradox virus would have resulted in the destruction of the Borg. Sure, Data and Geordi put on a good presentation when they unveil it to Picard, but really, they expect us to believe that after only a few encounters with the Borg they've managed to circumvent every anti-virus technology they posess? For all we know, all this virus would have done is make the the Borg that much more interested in assimilating us, since we came up with such an inventive form of resistance. A fleet of Cubes assimilate Earth, and we all trash Picard for ever considering using the virus. I'm not saying it would have happened this way, but considering what we know of the Borg now and especially the insatiable nature of the Queen, you have to admit it's a possibility. As to those that posed the hypothetical scenario of "If the Borg were in our solar system and the virus was our only chance to stop them", I would say yes, absolutely. Under those circumstances, we have nothing to lose. But you have to remember, those are different variables than what was going on in I, Borg. Also, consider Nachayev's position. She's as much a politician as she is a Starfleet officer, that much is clear. When she tore into Picard in Decent, she was more than likely taking out the stress she felt from her superiors on Earth who just wanted the whole Borg threat to quietly die. If the Hugh incident had occurred prior to Wolf 359, I would not be surprised in the least if she had a very different attitude about Picard's decision. __________________ "It has been my observation that one of the prices of giving people freedom of choice is that sometimes, they make the wrong choice." - Odo

March 7 2010, 04:28 PM	#89
Mojochi Fleet Captain	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? In 6 pages, I've not seen anyone write what I think. So I'll write it. They were ALL wrong. Picard, Crusher, Nachayev, everybody....... except Worf, & the tragic thing is, that Picard knew it. Worf's suggestion was to kill it, & make it look like it had died in the crash. That's a true security man talking, right there You do that, only if you think you can unequivocally leave no trace behind. (Which they could probably accomplish) Otherwise, you just leave well enough alone, & disappear. Picard knew, just like Worf, that the thing should never have been brought on board. Crusher let her Hippocratic oath get in the way, & the rest is history. (You're an officer too, Doc) It was dying when they got there, anyway. Maybe conduct a quick investigation to discern how & why it crashed, just to be certain that it wasn't somehow connected to you or yours.... Then, get lost! The suggested invasive virus? Just provocation. No evidence, beyond Geordi's observations of Hugh, to irrefutably prove it would work, & solid logic suggesting that, were it unsuccessful, it would provoke the Borg, into another attack, which had been conspicuously on hold for quite some time, short of a 5 unit scout cube. The likely reason for that standoff, was the Enterprise crew's rather ingenious defensive stand at Earth, in BoBW The Hugh-borne individuality virus? Also provocation! When the Borg had to cut links with Hugh's mothership, it would have likely provoked them. It could easily have been the catalyst for the Borg mounting their rather unconventional attack, on Earth & then its time line, in 1st Contact Starfleet's position has always been that they will not start a war. That's not just because of some ideological love of all lifeforms, but from a more practical understanding that fighting wars gets your people killed, & jeopardizes your way of life. So, why on Earth, would you want to deliberately provoke the bloody BORG, under any circumstances? Fear! No Sir! You leave that bastard dying right where he is, & if you can help him get dead quicker, with out any endangerment, then, by all means do so, but whatever you do, don't go getting your nuts in a sling. The irony is, that Worf's abruptly dismissed suggestion seemed either overly simplistic, or unacceptably dispassionate, at the time. There are times, when simplicity & dispassion are worthwhile attributes. That was one of them. I'd have had Worf & Riker drag her from the site. Let her bitch, if she wants. Write a formal protest. It'll make good fodder for an admiral's trash file Last edited by Mojochi; March 7 2010 at 06:11 PM. Reason: typo

March 7 2010, 06:48 PM	#90
SpyOne Commander	Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg? My 2 cents: As Picard pointed out, Hugh was not a Borg anymore. He used personal pronouns. He refused an order from Locutus, which should have been impossible. While it might be permissible to infect a Borg drone with a virus that would hopefully kill the collective(or most of it, anyway), doing so to some random stranger is totally out. There was an episode of Voyager where some people had genetically engineered a child as a weapon against the Borg, with the plan being that the Borg would assimilate him and the disease he carried would attack the collective, and the reaction of the Starfleet folks was not "Cool! Wish we'd thought of that," it was horror, and "How could you do that to a child?" Note that it was important that the child not know he was a weapon, since when he got assimilated the collective would learn everything he knew. Hugh was an individual, and no longer a Borg. It would be horribly wrong to use him against the Borg against his will or without his permission, and if he knows what you are planning it won't work. If Admiral Nacheyev was so sure that Picard's plan was the right thing to do, why not develop the virus and infect some random Vulcan you kidnapped, then dump him somewhere the Borg are sure to find him. Because that would be wrong. Admiral Nacheyev believes Picard should have gone ahead because she does not believe that Hugh was no longer a Borg. For that reason, I do not believe Picard was wrong. Hugh was no longer a Borg drone, he was an individual, he use personal pronouns, he recognized Picard as Locutus and still refused an order from him. Hugh was not a Borg.