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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old February 16 2010, 08:40 PM   #61
Kelthaz
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Of course Picard was wrong. The Borg aren't a race of sentient beings -- they're zombies! Sure, it'd be nice if you could reverse the zombification process and restore everyone to life, but if you see several billion zombies massing you don't hesitate to wipe them out. If you can capture one and save it you will, but you don't risk the lives of your entire species for a one in a thousand chance of saving the enemy. An enemy, I need not remind you, that is trying to exterminate your race and countless others.
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Old February 16 2010, 08:43 PM   #62
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

^DANG right!
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Old February 16 2010, 09:21 PM   #63
Admiral Shran
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Of course Picard was wrong. The Borg aren't a race of sentient beings -- they're zombies! Sure, it'd be nice if you could reverse the zombification process and restore everyone to life, but if you see several billion zombies massing you don't hesitate to wipe them out. If you can capture one and save it you will, but you don't risk the lives of your entire species for a one in a thousand chance of saving the enemy. An enemy, I need not remind you, that is trying to exterminate your race and countless others.
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Old February 16 2010, 11:29 PM   #64
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

And like I said, if they had used it and it failed (which we all know it would, and frankly this possibility SHOULD have been raised in the episode) all it would do it make the Borg more aggressive to the Federation and cause a TRUE Borg invasion. One they'd never survive.
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Old February 17 2010, 12:39 AM   #65
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

JRS wrote: View Post
In my opinion, the biggest problem of wiping out the entire Borg race is the fact that the assimilated drones can be severed from the hive mind, and thus saved from the Collective.
Exactly. Hugh is proof positive that the virus would be total genocide against his race. Killing all of the Borg would be killing billions of Hugh's.

A military encounter, i.e. Starfleet and Borg ships fighting each other, is different, because that operates under the rules of war. If a ship is attacking you, you have the right to shoot back. But not to wipe out the entire species. That's wrong.
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Old February 17 2010, 02:05 AM   #66
St. William Of Levittown
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

I would say...in times of war, you are justified in doing whatever is absolutely necessary and proper to DEFEND yourself, with the express intention of defending yourself.

A worthy philosophy of war is, As The Philosopher Said:

So long as men desire to live together, no man may initiate--do you hear me? No man may start--the use of physical force against others.

...It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man [or nation, or alliance, or whatever] who starts its use.

No, I do not share [the agressor's] evil or sink to his concept of morality: I mearly grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own.

He uses force to seize a value [to wit: to assimilate]; I use it to destroy destruction. A holdup man seeks to gain wealth by killing me; I do not grow richer by killing a holdup man. I seek no values by means of evil, nor do I surrender my values to evil.
So, then, all options must be kept on the table, for the purpose of defense--but make absolutely sure, before using such an extreme measure as, for example, "genocide" (i.e., the extermination of an entire race)--make absolutely sure that there is no other way to defend yourself.

Case in point: "The Man Trap". Kirk and Co. were completely justified in killing the salt creature, as it had proven that it was strong enough to overpower Starfleet's finest. The only way to stop this threat was to kill the creature--the last of its kind.
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Old February 17 2010, 02:51 AM   #67
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

The salt vampire was different. That was only one creature. Sure, it was the last of its kind, but that was irrelevant. The crew were faced with one specific creature who was about to kill a man, thus they are justified in killing *it*. The fact that this would mean the end of the creature's species is incidental.

Picard, OTOH, was presented with a weapon which would not kill one drone which was attacking him (he was not in immediate danger of course), but which was made for the express purpose of murdering billions. That's a whole new ball game.

Genocide is never an answer. There's always an alternative.
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Old February 17 2010, 07:53 AM   #68
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

What are these alternatives Picard had at his disposal?

Military victory? That isn't going to happen.
Negotiated peace? That won't work with the Borg.

The Borg never stopped being a massive threat to the Federation, and the entire galaxy, until Janeway "genocidally" infected them with the neurolytic pathogen, killed the Borg Queen, blew up the Unicomplex, and destroyed their Transwarp Network.

Sounds like what Picard had in mind, only taken to another level. Therefore, IMO, Picard should have used his plan, as it was later proven that it was the only workable way to end the Borg threat. Countless people could have been saved from assimilation or death at the hands of the Borg.
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Old February 17 2010, 10:13 AM   #69
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
The Borg never stopped being a massive threat to the Federation, and the entire galaxy, until Janeway "genocidally" infected them with the neurolytic pathogen, killed the Borg Queen, blew up the Unicomplex, and destroyed their Transwarp Network.
What Janeway did was NOT genocide. She was never likely to destroy all the Borg, just cripple them and kill quite a lot of them. In a war it is perfectly acceptable to kill a lot of people on the other side, trying to kill them all is different.

Now I'm not actually saying Picard was right or wrong there (though I think he was ultimately shown to be right) but simply winning a battle is hardly genocide.

Also killing the Borg Queen seems not to keep her down for very long.
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Old February 17 2010, 05:29 PM   #70
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
The Borg never stopped being a massive threat to the Federation, and the entire galaxy, until Janeway "genocidally" infected them with the neurolytic pathogen, killed the Borg Queen, blew up the Unicomplex, and destroyed their Transwarp Network.
Again, Janeway did that to save her ship. Voyager was under attack. Her response was immediate self-defense, and therefore justified under the rules of war.

If Hugh had been the vanguard of an invasion force which was about to board the Enterprise and assimilate everyone, then Picard would have been justified in using the 'virus' on him. But there was no immediate danger there. Hugh wasn't even part of the collective. So therefore Picard had no right to commit genocide. There was no threat.
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Old February 18 2010, 09:16 PM   #71
RobertScorpio
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
What are these alternatives Picard had at his disposal?

Military victory? That isn't going to happen.
Negotiated peace? That won't work with the Borg.

The Borg never stopped being a massive threat to the Federation, and the entire galaxy, until Janeway "genocidally" infected them with the neurolytic pathogen, killed the Borg Queen, blew up the Unicomplex, and destroyed their Transwarp Network.

Sounds like what Picard had in mind, only taken to another level. Therefore, IMO, Picard should have used his plan, as it was later proven that it was the only workable way to end the Borg threat. Countless people could have been saved from assimilation or death at the hands of the Borg.
I totally agree with you on this. But let me try the devil advocate role;

If Q took you back into the past, to when Hitler was a baby, and gave you the opportunity to end Hilter's life and prevent his rise to power; would you? Going one further, what if Q swore to you that by killing the baby hitler, Earth's history would have been far less bloody; would you?

Rob
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Old February 18 2010, 09:34 PM   #72
USS KG5
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
What are these alternatives Picard had at his disposal?

Military victory? That isn't going to happen.
Negotiated peace? That won't work with the Borg.

The Borg never stopped being a massive threat to the Federation, and the entire galaxy, until Janeway "genocidally" infected them with the neurolytic pathogen, killed the Borg Queen, blew up the Unicomplex, and destroyed their Transwarp Network.

Sounds like what Picard had in mind, only taken to another level. Therefore, IMO, Picard should have used his plan, as it was later proven that it was the only workable way to end the Borg threat. Countless people could have been saved from assimilation or death at the hands of the Borg.
I totally agree with you on this. But let me try the devil advocate role;

If Q took you back into the past, to when Hitler was a baby, and gave you the opportunity to end Hilter's life and prevent his rise to power; would you? Going one further, what if Q swore to you that by killing the baby hitler, Earth's history would have been far less bloody; would you?

Rob
Nope, the war would just have happened with someone else, with the USSR instead of Germany, or at another time.

WW2 was a culmination of years of events, Hitler was just the right monster in the right place at the right time.
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Old February 18 2010, 10:02 PM   #73
Pseudo
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

USS KG5 wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Admiral Shran wrote: View Post
What are these alternatives Picard had at his disposal?

Military victory? That isn't going to happen.
Negotiated peace? That won't work with the Borg.

The Borg never stopped being a massive threat to the Federation, and the entire galaxy, until Janeway "genocidally" infected them with the neurolytic pathogen, killed the Borg Queen, blew up the Unicomplex, and destroyed their Transwarp Network.

Sounds like what Picard had in mind, only taken to another level. Therefore, IMO, Picard should have used his plan, as it was later proven that it was the only workable way to end the Borg threat. Countless people could have been saved from assimilation or death at the hands of the Borg.
I totally agree with you on this. But let me try the devil advocate role;

If Q took you back into the past, to when Hitler was a baby, and gave you the opportunity to end Hilter's life and prevent his rise to power; would you? Going one further, what if Q swore to you that by killing the baby hitler, Earth's history would have been far less bloody; would you?

Rob
Nope, the war would just have happened with someone else, with the USSR instead of Germany, or at another time.

WW2 was a culmination of years of events, Hitler was just the right monster in the right place at the right time.

In fact WW2 occurring when it did may have saved millions of lives. Imagine what might have happened if the war had started a decade or two later when the antagonists had developed nuclear weapons technology.
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Old February 18 2010, 10:16 PM   #74
RobertScorpio
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Pseudo wrote: View Post
USS KG5 wrote: View Post
RobertScorpio wrote: View Post

I totally agree with you on this. But let me try the devil advocate role;

If Q took you back into the past, to when Hitler was a baby, and gave you the opportunity to end Hilter's life and prevent his rise to power; would you? Going one further, what if Q swore to you that by killing the baby hitler, Earth's history would have been far less bloody; would you?

Rob
Nope, the war would just have happened with someone else, with the USSR instead of Germany, or at another time.

WW2 was a culmination of years of events, Hitler was just the right monster in the right place at the right time.

In fact WW2 occurring when it did may have saved millions of lives. Imagine what might have happened if the war had started a decade or two later when the antagonists had developed nuclear weapons technology.
So, I will mark both your answers down as no.

But read my question CLOSER. If Q was able to guarentee that WW2 would not happen, at all, would you do it. If he took you to Stalins house when he was a baby and offered you a "two for the price of one" deal, and total peace would come to Earth, would you take the life of those two or not?

Rob
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Old February 19 2010, 12:07 AM   #75
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Misplaced morality is almost a trademark of TNG.

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Of course Picard was wrong. The Borg aren't a race of sentient beings -- they're zombies! Sure, it'd be nice if you could reverse the zombification process and restore everyone to life, but if you see several billion zombies massing you don't hesitate to wipe them out. If you can capture one and save it you will, but you don't risk the lives of your entire species for a one in a thousand chance of saving the enemy. An enemy, I need not remind you, that is trying to exterminate your race and countless others.
I couldn't have said better.
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