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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 25 2010, 12:08 AM   #151
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

BillJ wrote: View Post
So it's moral to stand by and do nothing while others suffer? Which is what this argument ultimately comes down to.
When the only alternative is to do something doomed-to-failure from inception that will only make you more noticeable, then yes it IS the moral thing to do. In fact it's beyond moral, it's simply the ONLY thing to do.
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Old April 25 2010, 12:29 AM   #152
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar

Watch 'I, Borg'.

When he made his decision, Picard was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the paradox will work. In his subjective decision-making forum, that the paradox will work was a certainty.

And this was true for the rest of the crew. And given that many from the crew were more than qualified to make accurate judgments on this kind of matters, the paradox had a VERY HIGH CHANCE of working, of dismantling the collective mind.
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Old April 25 2010, 03:31 AM   #153
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post

When he made his decision, Picard was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the paradox will work. In his subjective decision-making forum, that the paradox will work was a certainty.
He was wrong.

And this was true for the rest of the crew. And given that many from the crew were more than qualified to make accurate judgments on this kind of matters, the paradox had a VERY HIGH CHANCE of working, of dismantling the collective mind.
They were wrong, and should have known better.
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Old April 25 2010, 03:44 AM   #154
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
They were wrong, and should have known better.
So - they were wrong because you say so.
Cute.
I guess this is part of your - I don't care about the facts, I'm in my 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' mode.


Just remember - Picard made his decision being convinced the paradox will work - in other words, he CHOOSE to sacrifice BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS just so that he can delude himself that he's morally spotless.
That was his INTENT - whether the paradox would objectively have worked or not is irrelevant on this subjective level.

Of course, in reality, his bodycount surpassed that of any monster from our history.
All the horrors that permeate our history? They pale by comparison to what Picard choose to allow to happen due to his fanaticism.
No ammount of self-righteous speeches will wash away the river of blood that stains Picard's hands.
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Old April 25 2010, 04:33 AM   #155
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Anwar wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
So it's moral to stand by and do nothing while others suffer? Which is what this argument ultimately comes down to.
When the only alternative is to do something doomed-to-failure from inception that will only make you more noticeable, then yes it IS the moral thing to do. In fact it's beyond moral, it's simply the ONLY thing to do.


So it's better to stick your head in the sand and hope the 'big bad wolf' doesn't notice your house of straw as he goes by.

Priceless.
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Old April 25 2010, 04:43 AM   #156
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Picard didn't do "nothing". He sent Hugh back to the Collective. Which probably was a far more potent weapon - Hugh's individuality. The virus may not have worked, but Hugh himself sure did (to a point, anyway).
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Old April 25 2010, 05:04 AM   #157
Rojixus
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Picard didn't do "nothing". He sent Hugh back to the Collective. Which probably was a far more potent weapon - Hugh's individuality. The virus may not have worked, but Hugh himself sure did (to a point, anyway).
How did it help? Hugh didn't change anything about the Borg.
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Old April 25 2010, 09:56 AM   #158
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Picard didn't do "nothing". He sent Hugh back to the Collective. Which probably was a far more potent weapon - Hugh's individuality. The virus may not have worked, but Hugh himself sure did (to a point, anyway).
Consider the crew's attitude towards this 'individuality' weapon - a jaded it 'may' do something.
Compare it with their certainty that the paradox will work.

The individuality attack was a long shot, had very low chances of succes.
Enterprises' crew knew that - and they were proven right by the individuality attack's failure to even scrarch the collective - only 1 ship affected out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CUBES the collective has? It didn't even slow down the borg!

BillJ wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
So it's moral to stand by and do nothing while others suffer? Which is what this argument ultimately comes down to.
When the only alternative is to do something doomed-to-failure from inception that will only make you more noticeable, then yes it IS the moral thing to do. In fact it's beyond moral, it's simply the ONLY thing to do.


So it's better to stick your head in the sand and hope the 'big bad wolf' doesn't notice your house of straw as he goes by.

Priceless.
An attitude made even more ridiculous (yes, it's actually possible) by the fact that the 'big bad wold' already noticed your house and it was a certainty he would, sooner rather than later, come for his 'prey', for you.
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Old April 25 2010, 12:45 PM   #159
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

If the Big Bad Wolf only hunts and kills those it thinks are worth killing, and for the time being you DON'T appear worthy (and probably aren't) then you do NOT provoke him into actually wanting to kill you when he otherwise would just have a middling interest but not really care about you. It's suicide.
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Old April 25 2010, 01:17 PM   #160
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Anwar

Watch 'I, Borg'.

When he made his decision, Picard was ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the paradox will work. In his subjective decision-making forum, that the paradox will work was a certainty.
Yeah too bad for Picard's certainty that later Trek episodes show the Borg as able to cut off ships infected with viruses aka what happened to the Borg kids in Voyager's cube.

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
They were wrong, and should have known better.
So - they were wrong because you say so.
Cute.
No they were wrong because it was shown in later episodes that the Borg can cut entire ships off from the collective when they are infected with any type of virus.

You really need to watch more than one Borg epiosde before you claim to know everything about them.
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Old April 25 2010, 01:50 PM   #161
ProtoAvatar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Hartzilla2007

The information paradox, the individuality sense and that biological virus from VOY are completely different weapons:

It's common sense that a biological virus won't spread beyond a ship;

Enterprise's crew predicted the borg security measures will most likely neutralise the individuality sense attack - which happened.
Considering the 'intimate' experiece both Picard and Data had with the hive mind - among other things - you can be sure that, by the time of 'I, Borg', Starfleet had a pretty good ideea about how the hive mind operates; an incomparably more accurate image than the superficial knowledge you have even NOW.

Everyone on the Enterprise was SURE the paradox program will manage to dismantle the hive mind, go around its security measures. Frankly, your opinion is worthless by comparison.
The paradox had a very good chace of objectively working.

And, indeed, Picard was CONVINCED the paradox will work when he made his choice. PICARD INTENDED TO CONDEMN TO DEATH AND ASSIMILATION BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS, the borg's future victims. All so that he can fanaticly claim he 'always' took the perfect 'white' choice. Monstruous.


PS: You're the one who claims to know 'everything' about the borg - far more than Data or Geordi - when, in truth, you only have a ridicuously shallow knowledge of their tech. Not me.

Last edited by ProtoAvatar; April 25 2010 at 02:30 PM.
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Old April 25 2010, 09:26 PM   #162
Anwar
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

And again, Picard was wrong. That the entire crew was so sure it would work was just made writing to force some moral view, when frankly it never made sense they'd be so sure of it anyways.
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Old April 25 2010, 09:51 PM   #163
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

ProtoAvatar wrote: View Post
Mr Troi wrote: View Post
You are in very dangerous territory if one day you happened to find yourself contemplating genocide because you thought you had a good excuse for it. Inevitably something unplanned happens. A deadlier threat emerges, or everybody gets killed anyway but in different circumstances, or you become so corrupt that people try to kill you.
You don't seem to understand one thing, Mr Troi:

PICARD DID COMMIT GENOCIDE!

Picard had a chance to stop the borg and he didn't use it, knowing that the borg are and will continue to kill BILLIONS, in an orgy of violence, death and suffering beyond comprehension...

Picard either used the weapon against the borg, destroying the hive mind, or he didn't, in which case he, too, is responsible for the death of BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS at the hands of the borg.
One can only choose the 'lesser evil' in this situation; there's no moral, 'white' choice.

Picard allowed the borg to endure, staining his hands with the blood of BILLIONS.

And why did Picard did this?
He did it in order to delude himself that, even in this situation, he made the perfectly moral, 'white' choice. As for the BILLIONS the borg continued to kill, well, if Picard didn't have to see their faces as they died, he can keep telling himseld they're not his problem, that their blood is not staining his hands, too.
....

I'm amazed, ProtoAvatar. I seem to recall your saying in a previous debate with yours truly--in no uncertain terms--that if a power, such as the UFP, were capable of commiting genocide and wiping out an entire enemy...that it would therefore also be capable of defeating said enemy without having to resort to genocide!

Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? Because, by this new argument, genocide against the Dominion is justified because it prevents genocide on the Dominion's part against billions upon billions of victims of said Dominion....

(In case everyone else is wondering...I'm referring to a previous debate in which we discussed the changeling virus.

And yes, I am aware that he and I also discussed the practicality of the virus--but at the moment, we are discussing genocide in general. Namely--can you justify genocide because it will probably--even decidedly--prevent the genocide of other races?

And...if we were discussing practicality--of course, the changeling-virus practicality is every bit as debatable as that of the Borg-virus--for the same reasons. Just saying.)
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Old April 25 2010, 10:05 PM   #164
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
....

I'm amazed, ProtoAvatar. I seem to recall your saying in a previous debate with yours truly--in no uncertain terms--that if a power, such as the UFP, were capable of commiting genocide and wiping out an entire enemy...that it would therefore also be capable of defeating said enemy without having to resort to genocide!

Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? Because, by this new argument, genocide against the Dominion is justified because it prevents genocide on the Dominion's part against billions upon billions of victims of said Dominion....

(In case everyone else is wondering...I'm referring to a previous debate in which we discussed the changeling virus.

And yes, I am aware that he and I also discussed the practicality of the virus--but at the moment, we are discussing genocide in general. Namely--can you justify genocide because it will probably--even decidedly--prevent the genocide of other races?

And...if we were discussing practicality--of course, the changeling-virus practicality is every bit as debatable as that of the Borg-virus--for the same reasons. Just saying.)
"Have you re-examined the validity of that assertion, sir? "

Hardly, Rush Limborg.

You see, the scenarists made the borg ridiculosly 'evil' - one mind, one unchanging will, no civilians whatsoever, continuous genocide, etc

The emergence of such an army is only tenable in fiction.
In real life, such a case NEVER occured and will never occur. Anyone who even comes close to something like that will self-destruct.

As for the Founders and the Dominion - they're not even close to this situation!
The Founders can be negociated with. Their death won't diminish the Dominion's fighting capacity. Etc, etc - you should know the rest.

Equating the Founders or any real world entity with the borg is a straw-man argument.
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Old April 25 2010, 10:53 PM   #165
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Re: Was Picard wrong in I,Borg?

No, Picard was not wrong. What he did was very much in keeping with everything we have come to know about Federation moral principles. The Federation follows an absolute code of morality that is black and white about what it sees as wrong and right. It would never sanction the murder of one innocent life to save even a hundred billion people. We may view his decision as silly from a practical point of view, but that is not how the Federation judges actions. It is Nechayev's comments that would be considered bizarre within the Federation.
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