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Old December 20 2013, 11:20 AM   #76
Edit_XYZ
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Dukhat

About unmanned missions. It's called google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...em_exploration
Be sure to also look up the missions launched by countries other than USA (as opposed to pretending they aren't there). Also be sure to look up "Planned and scheduled" missions.
And Rosetta is an EU mission.

About manned missions:
You count rockets that, at best, will be ready in a decade? You are making my point; reduced to such pathetic tactics in order to cosmetize a program that 50 years ago put humans on the moon and today can't even put one in orbit.
And about such future potential technologies - other countries are not staying put, obediently waiting for USA to catch up to them, to put some substance behind its 'manifest destiny' meme. Take Skylon, for example.

BTW, even after accounting for the size of India's probe, its budget remains ridiculously small by comparison to NASA's (for similar missions, etc - as is implicit in my last post).

PS - Dukhat, despite what you obviously think, jingoism never helped one's nation, historically speaking. For example, take nazi Germany; all empires of the past; etc.
Instead of answering my questions, if all you're going to do is tell me to go to Google, then my conversation with you is concluded,
So, you've somehow managed not to see the link I posted after 'Google' (a link you can find with google in all of 5 seconds), despite responding to it. lol

especially since you're trying to convince me that the US has had such a dismal track record in comparison to other countries, and yet I see whole lots of American flags in that link (and while I see a somewhat equal number of Soviet flags, the majority of their missions ended in failure). I know what space missions have been launched, both by NASA and other countries (and I meant to say Dawn, not Rosetta), and I don't need links that don't even help you prove your own incorrect assumptions.
Here you go again. Glorious past and all that.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Curiosity's skycrane again, as this seems to be very effective at managing to convince yourself of american superiority.

Dukhat, that glorious past you wallow in was wasted by the failure of subsequent generations to build upon it. Nowadays, it's a substance free slogan.

Obviously you're either in denial about the US's successful space flight history, or you're just biased against Americans, which is your own problem and has nothing to do with this discussion.
You forgot one option (actually, several, but this one happens to be correct): you're in denial due to your need to jingoistically believe in America's superiority in space.
The validity of this option is easy to ascertain, given how your posts consist mainly of prayers on the altar of a past golden age, ignoring all information that could cause you to wake up from your dream world and simple denial.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 20 2013 at 11:44 AM.
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Old December 20 2013, 11:26 AM   #77
Edit_XYZ
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

gturner

Of course NASA's disastrous setbacks in manned (and serious setbacks in future unmanned) missions are due to self-destructive policy/administrative decisions.

When you have the budget and manpower NASA has, only very poor leadership decisions can cause failure on such an epic scale.
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Old December 21 2013, 06:03 PM   #78
Dukhat
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Dukhat

About unmanned missions. It's called google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...em_exploration
Be sure to also look up the missions launched by countries other than USA (as opposed to pretending they aren't there). Also be sure to look up "Planned and scheduled" missions.
And Rosetta is an EU mission.

About manned missions:
You count rockets that, at best, will be ready in a decade? You are making my point; reduced to such pathetic tactics in order to cosmetize a program that 50 years ago put humans on the moon and today can't even put one in orbit.
And about such future potential technologies - other countries are not staying put, obediently waiting for USA to catch up to them, to put some substance behind its 'manifest destiny' meme. Take Skylon, for example.

BTW, even after accounting for the size of India's probe, its budget remains ridiculously small by comparison to NASA's (for similar missions, etc - as is implicit in my last post).

PS - Dukhat, despite what you obviously think, jingoism never helped one's nation, historically speaking. For example, take nazi Germany; all empires of the past; etc.
Instead of answering my questions, if all you're going to do is tell me to go to Google, then my conversation with you is concluded,
So, you've somehow managed not to see the link I posted after 'Google' (a link you can find with google in all of 5 seconds), despite responding to it. lol

especially since you're trying to convince me that the US has had such a dismal track record in comparison to other countries, and yet I see whole lots of American flags in that link (and while I see a somewhat equal number of Soviet flags, the majority of their missions ended in failure). I know what space missions have been launched, both by NASA and other countries (and I meant to say Dawn, not Rosetta), and I don't need links that don't even help you prove your own incorrect assumptions.
Here you go again. Glorious past and all that.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Curiosity's skycrane again, as this seems to be very effective at managing to convince yourself of american superiority.

Dukhat, that glorious past you wallow in was wasted by the failure of subsequent generations to build upon it. Nowadays, it's a substance free slogan.

Obviously you're either in denial about the US's successful space flight history, or you're just biased against Americans, which is your own problem and has nothing to do with this discussion.
You forgot one option (actually, several, but this one happens to be correct): you're in denial due to your need to jingoistically believe in America's superiority in space.
The validity of this option is easy to ascertain, given how your posts consist mainly of prayers on the altar of a past golden age, ignoring all information that could cause you to wake up from your dream world and simple denial.
I've grown tired of conversing with you, since you don't actually answer my questions to you, and instead resort to personal insults (which is the hallmark of someone who has realized his arguments are invalid and must compensate with pointless subterfuge), and your obvious anti-Americanism has nothing to do with this discussion, so I'll conclude by saying I look forward to all future space missions by all countries regardless of my personal feeling and biases toward them. Too bad you can't do the same.
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Old December 22 2013, 07:47 PM   #79
MacLeod
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Instead of nations competeting against other in space, imagine what could be accomplished if those nations pooled all the money and resources into one pot.
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Old December 22 2013, 08:08 PM   #80
sojourner
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Like to build something like the International Space Station? Nah, never happen.
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Old December 22 2013, 08:11 PM   #81
Deckerd
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Well the future of all things 'spacey' is collaborative ventures between countries. The Indians and the Chinese are making their mark as nations as a political statement to their own people, not for foreign consumption. All meaningful future research and development will be multinational. All the grown-up stuff happening just now already is. Which is why moaning about the lack of USA-only work is sooooooo last century.
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Old December 22 2013, 11:22 PM   #82
TheMasterOfOrion
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

China’s 1st Lunar Lander snaps 1st landing site Panorama
http://www.universetoday.com/107388/...site-panorama/

gturner wrote: View Post
Dukhat wrote: View Post
Obviously you're either in denial about the US's successful space flight history, or you're just biased against Americans, which is your own problem and has nothing to do with this discussion.
Emphasis mine. The problem he's pointing out is essentially that the SLS is sucking up a whole lot of the funding for planetary missions, as those departments have their budgets raided for SLS funding, yet NASA's projected flight rate for the SLS is so low that if Apollo had only flown crewed missions as often, the crew for Apollo 17 would still be waiting for their mission to the moon, which would occur sometime around 2015.

One of the other problems is that our legacy launchers are too expensive, so that the recent SpaceX GES-8 mission was the first private US launch to geosynchronous orbit in four years, in spite of the thriving launch business for such satellites. A ride on a full up Atlas 5 is about 200 million dollars, whereas SpaceX did it for about a fourth the cost. That cost difference (the US ended up with over-priced launch services), combined with budget pressures from the SLS, means that the number of deep space missions that NASA can carry out is under severe constraints.

There's also the plutonium crisis which has left the US unable to launch any major new missions to the outer planets, but hopefully Kirk Sorensen's FLiBe energy company will rectify the shortfall.

as usual politics is NASA's biggest obstacle
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Old December 23 2013, 07:36 PM   #83
publiusr
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

F-35 and wars are sucking funding.
"And, rare among NASA programs, SLS’s funding and timeline were in good shape. SLS is running five months ahead of schedule and is below budget"
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2405/1

Garry Lyles proves there is no "retreat"
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/...ocket_999.html
http://www.americaspace.com/?p=46724


China isn't afraid to spend money on big LVs themselves
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....p22-620995.xml

Some debate about CZ-9's future:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/ind...topic=8447.180

Now scroll down to the middle of this article to see how the recent lander compares to the descent stage of the LEM
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/2413/1
http://www.spacedaily.com/dragonspace.html
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Old December 24 2013, 07:00 AM   #84
clint g
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Instead of nations competeting against other in space, imagine what could be accomplished if those nations pooled all the money and resources into one pot.
There's nothing wrong with a little bit of competition.
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Old December 24 2013, 04:34 PM   #85
T'Girl
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

publiusr wrote: View Post
F-35 and wars are sucking funding.
Making the assumption that if that money were not going to those projects and activities, it would be going to NASA?



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Old December 26 2013, 09:22 PM   #86
gturner
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

In today's Washington Post is an article on NASA's budget pressures and the fall-off in planetary exploration missions.
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Old December 27 2013, 02:25 AM   #87
MacLeod
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

clint g wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Instead of nations competeting against other in space, imagine what could be accomplished if those nations pooled all the money and resources into one pot.
There's nothing wrong with a little bit of competition.
True, but there is time and a place for that. We have finite resources so is it not more prudent instead of competing against each other in something such as space exploration and in essence duplicating work thereby wasting some of those finite resourse that we work together so some of those finite resources could be distriuted to hlp allievate another issue somehwere else on the planet.

Yes we already have joined projects, and some countries already pool their resources together i.e. ESA.

But would could we accomplish if we pooled together what each space agency spends into one fund. If we had done it 10, 20 years go could we have returned to the moon by know, could we have established a moonbase, gone to MArs?
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Old December 27 2013, 05:46 AM   #88
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

Of course we could if we had kept the momentun from the 60s going and pour the same amount of money into it.

It is only a question of money.. technologically we are capable of this for quite some time now but the problem is that it is very hard to convince people of the usefulness of space exploration.

How do you explain spending billions of dollars just so you can get some pictures from the surface of Mars when said people are unemployed or have other problems? What does a normal person care if there ever was water on Mars?

We as humanity could have colonized our system by now and maybe have fusion energy or even FTL ships if we had skipped our periods of technological stagnation and our constant warfare and instead worked together to achieve a higher goal.

But we are a competitive species.. many of our discoveries were born out of competition. Companies compete against each other and develop better products so they get an advantage on the market, nations compete for the same reasons and sometimes also for ideological reasons.

China doesn't push its space program for scientific research.. they want to profit from it for both technological and PR reasons much like the US and the Soviets did in the 50s and 60s.
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Old December 27 2013, 06:21 AM   #89
gturner
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But would could we accomplish if we pooled together what each space agency spends into one fund. If we had done it 10, 20 years go could we have returned to the moon by know, could we have established a moonbase, gone to MArs?
You can also end up accomplishing less than we would on our own, depending on how all the project responsibilities, resources, and production get divided up. If done wrong, you end up with a project management nightmare where diplomats are deciding important engineering details and the work gets subdivided so finely that most of what the engineers are doing is trying to understand what other engineers from other countries are doing.

Sometimes the big advantage is just having one company do something in-house.
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Old December 27 2013, 07:44 PM   #90
Deckerd
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Re: US retreat leaves China leading way in race to return to Moon

gturner wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
But would could we accomplish if we pooled together what each space agency spends into one fund. If we had done it 10, 20 years go could we have returned to the moon by know, could we have established a moonbase, gone to MArs?
You can also end up accomplishing less than we would on our own, depending on how all the project responsibilities, resources, and production get divided up. If done wrong, you end up with a project management nightmare where diplomats are deciding important engineering details and the work gets subdivided so finely that most of what the engineers are doing is trying to understand what other engineers from other countries are doing.

Sometimes the big advantage is just having one company do something in-house.
I believe the exact opposite. The future of ALL space exploration is collaborative. Nobody knows this more than the Chinese and the Indians. They're just staking their claim so they don't get left behind. They can still afford the punch but they have practically no background in the scientific instrument finesse that the western world excels in.
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