RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,879
Posts: 5,222,100
Members: 24,230
Currently online: 736
Newest member: zombie1701

TrekToday headlines

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Miles Away Glyph Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 6 2010, 09:03 PM   #766
Jan
Commodore
 
Jan's Avatar
 
Location: ...is insane. --JMS
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Kegg wrote: View Post
One thing I didn't like about "Points of Departure" is to the extent John Sheridan was a very unsubtly reworked version of Jeffrey Sinclair.
<snip>
And what do we get? Well, Jeffrey Sinclair, the lead character in a show by Joe Straczynski, is replaced by John Sheridan. Sinclair has a history with Garibaldi, Sheridan has a history with Ivanova. Sinclair was a hero of the last stand of the Minbari War, Sheridan won the only successful battle of that war. And so on - he even looks like a younger, fresher-faced Sinclair.
Sorry, Kegg, I'm afraid you're reaching *way* too far for a criticism here. Captain Happy resembling the ever-dour Sinclair?!? I don't think so! They're both tall. That's really about the extent of it.

In a memo describing the character (written May 1, 1994 - two and a half months before writing "Points") JMS described the new captain as
JMS in Script Book Three wrote:
Middle 30s, attractive, upbeat,
charismatic. The kind of person who could
charm G'Kar out of his socks without him
even knowing it. Where Sinclair is
rigidly by-the-book and haunted, Strider
is flexible and optimistic. He's a little
more Machiavellian, in the good sense of
the word; always one step ahead of
everybody else. He is able to balance a
sense of humor with being a credible
authority figure.
.
Archetype: Pierce Brosnan, or a young Sean
Connery. Could be American, but an
English or Irish actor with unimpeachable
acting credentials, classically trained,
would be a real find.
You'll be happy to know the placeholder name that JMS gave the new Captain, though: John Strider. However, the link to Lord of the Rings is small.
I chose Strider as a temporary name because I’m a Lord of the Rings fan, and
that image was a good one for me to hold in mind during the writing, but I always
intended to change the name later, once we’d cast the actor and I could figure out
what name fit. The initials JS would remain, however, because…well, that’s my
way of signing my work.
Jan
Jan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:08 PM   #767
Kegg
Rear Admiral
 
Kegg's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland.
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Jan wrote: View Post
Sorry, Kegg, I'm afraid you're reaching *way* too far for a criticism here.


Surely you jest. Must I rather tendentiously evoke the little J.S. thing again? JMS is pretty consistent in B5 with replacing characters with reworked versions of the same character, with varying degrees of success, and Sinclair to Sheridan is just one of the most prominent examples.

That's not the same thing as saying Sheridan is the same character as Sinclair. As observed, he's been reworked. He has less of Sinclair's intellectual bent, but even that in part is necessary to explain the logic of him being selected for the job given the great importance the Minbari placed on Sinclair's selection in the first season (the implication being there were dozens of top brass guys eager to get the post - so why are they all passed over again? Well, uh, hero of the war, snub it to the Minbari!)

Even the fact he was Santiago's second pick wants to connect him to the late president in some way, who of course was responsible for appointing Sinclair.

You'll be happy to know the placeholder name that JMS gave the new Captain, though: John Strider.
I knew that already, actually.

The initials JS would remain, however, because…well, that’s my
way of signing my work.
Matthew Gideon and David Martel may beg to differ on that point.
__________________
'Spock is always right, even when he's wrong. It's the tone of voice, the supernatural reasonability; this is not a man like us; this is a god.'
- Philip K. Dick
Kegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:36 PM   #768
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

I can't say I see your point, Kegg. Sheridan and Sinclair are massively different.
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:41 PM   #769
Jan
Commodore
 
Jan's Avatar
 
Location: ...is insane. --JMS
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Kegg wrote: View Post
Surely you jest. Must I rather tendentiously evoke the little J.S. thing again? JMS is pretty consistent in B5 with replacing characters with reworked versions of the same character, with varying degrees of success, and Sinclair to Sheridan is just one of the most prominent examples.

That's not the same thing as saying Sheridan is the same character as Sinclair. As observed, he's been reworked. He has less of Sinclair's intellectual bent, but even that in part is necessary to explain the logic of him being selected for the job given the great importance the Minbari placed on Sinclair's selection in the first season (the implication being there were dozens of top brass guys eager to get the post - so why are they all passed over again? Well, uh, hero of the war, snub it to the Minbari!)

Even the fact he was Santiago's second pick wants to connect him to the late president in some way, who of course was responsible for appointing Sinclair.
Maybe we've got an issue of semantics here. Given that the show was pre-planned, when a character dropped out, another character (or characters) had to be given certain parts of the story to carry out. A perfect example is with Lyta, who


That doesn't mean the the character is simply 'reworked', it's a new character in his/her own right with plot threads laid over from previous characters.

Jan
Jan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:44 PM   #770
Neroon
Mod of balance
 
Neroon's Avatar
 
Location: On my ship the Rocinante
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Martel and Gideon were from different shows, even if in the same universe. I can understand the criticism of naming the two leads with identical initials. It does seem a little convenient, and truth be told... I am betting that has a connection to the original intent and design of the series.

However, in the end it seems a pretty thin thing onto which a criticism is hung. The two characters - even if Sheridan is a replacement for Sinclair - developed into markedly different people.
__________________
"Those who promote peace have joy."
- Proverbs 12:20
Neroon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:48 PM   #771
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

To make a ridiculously simplistic argument, when I worked at TGI Fridays we went through many different managers. Three of them were all named Jeff. They all had the same job, but they were all very different people.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:53 PM   #772
Kegg
Rear Admiral
 
Kegg's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland.
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

^
When it comes to implausible excuses, real life basically gets off the hook because nobody's really criticizing the writing.
Jan wrote: View Post
Maybe we've got an issue of semantics here. Given that the show was pre-planned, when a character dropped out, another character (or characters) had to be given certain parts of the story to carry out.
Exactly, only it's a little more than that. I'll return to the coffee again: What purpose exactly did it serve for Ivanova to appropriate Takashima's character quirk of bending the regs to have real coffee on the station? Clearly, in terms of plots and arcs, absolutely nothing. It does however make sense when it's understood Ivanova is a replacement for Takashima, and not simply in the role the character occupied. There are things about the old characters JMS still wants to do, so he keeps those things in the new characters, and it's not all arc related. Hence, yeah, they are basically reworked versions of their predecessors.

Neroon wrote: View Post
However, in the end it seems a pretty thin thing onto which a criticism is hung.
Absolutely. It's just a nice talking point. I gave a dozen other examples further upthread, in my "spoiler territory" spoiler marker.
__________________
'Spock is always right, even when he's wrong. It's the tone of voice, the supernatural reasonability; this is not a man like us; this is a god.'
- Philip K. Dick
Kegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:55 PM   #773
stonester1
Rear Admiral
 
stonester1's Avatar
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

To Rojohen

But obviously, it was a hack writer writing that portion of your life.

Probably ripping off another life at another restaraunt, like Appleby's, or something.

__________________
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells
stonester1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 09:56 PM   #774
RoJoHen
Awesome
 
RoJoHen's Avatar
 
Location: QC, IL, USA
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

stonester1 wrote: View Post

But obviously, it was a hack writer writing that portion of your life.
That would actually explain a lot.

I'm pretty sure it must have been a soap opera writer.
__________________
I am the Quintessential Admiral.
RoJoHen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 6 2010, 10:26 PM   #775
Ensign_Redshirt
Commodore
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

I wouldn't go so far to say that Sinclair/Garibaldi and Sheridan/Ivanova had the same kind of relationship either. Sinclair and Garibaldi were build up as those close buddies,while Sheridan and Ivanova were just people who had previously served together a couple of years ago (and therefore had a much more professional relationship than Sinclair/Garibaldi).

Ensign_Redshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2010, 01:54 AM   #776
chrisspringob
Commodore
 
Location: North Ryde, NSW
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Revelations (***½)

After watching this episode it really reinforces how Points of Departure put everything on hold in order to introduce Sheridan because all four plots from Chrysalis (G'Kar searching for something, Delenn in her cocoon, Garibaldi in a coma and the assassination of the Earth President) come into play here. All these plots are interesting on some level but none of them are all that shocking, at least not for me. G'Kar coming to the realisation that there's another race, an evil one that threatens them all, is important but it's not a huge revelation for me because I've known about the Shadows for years. I don't know what they are or why they're returning, but this episode didn't delve into any of that.
Again, this is an inherent problem in these threads by B5 newbies on this board. People on TrekBBS tend to keep up w/ sci-fi news enough that they tend to be partially spoiled on the plot of B5 even before they've seen a single episode.

One thing I'll mention though: At this point in the series, it may seem like the focus is on the mysteries. But as you get further into Season 2, it's not so much about things happening that are meant to be surprising. On the contrary, it's more like the events unfold in a natural way, as a logical consequence of what's happened before, in a way that you could have predicted in advance.

But that's a style that I find really interesting. In most arc-heavy TV shows I've seen, you can see the heavy hand of the writer moving pieces around to suit his whims of the moment. In B5 (at least, in much of it), it feels more like the plot is a force of nature, where things advance forward in a predictable, but logical way, like you're watching a slow motion train wreck, where you can see the train coming down the tracks well in advance, but there's nothing you can do to stop it.
chrisspringob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2010, 02:20 AM   #777
Skywalker
Admiral
 
Skywalker's Avatar
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

You know, this thread is definitely rekindling my interest in Babylon 5. I watched it on occasion back during the late '90s when it was just ending its run, and I thought it was a pretty cool sci-fi universe, but I never got into the show enough to make a habit of watching it whenever I saw it on TV.

Now the entire series can be had on DVD at Walmart for $100 ($20 per season), and I'm seriously considering buying them all before they're gone. I highly doubt the series will ever get a proper Blu-ray treatment, so DVD is probably my best bet for the near future. Are the DVDs widescreen? I seem to recall B5 being filmed for that aspect ratio, but I don't know if the DVDs were mastered that way. What's the picture quality like?
Skywalker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2010, 02:40 AM   #778
Lindley
Moderator with a Soul
 
Location: Fairfax, VA
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

The DVDs are widescreen, but since the FX shots were only available in 4:3, they've been cropped. Therefore, the FX shots don't look even as good as they did originally (and this is 90s CGI to start with). Also, any live action scene with a CGI overlay had to get the same treatment.

All in all, it's not great picture quality, but it's good enough to tell the story.
__________________
Lead Organizer for EVN: Firefly.
"So apparently the really smart zombies have automatic weapons!"
-Torg, Sluggy Freelance
Lindley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2010, 02:42 AM   #779
Blamo
Fleet Captain
 
Location: UK
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Like Skywalker, my interest has been rekindled thanks to this thread, so I started rewatching from Babylon Squared. I'm now upto the third to last episode of season two. Really wish I could forget the entire show so I could experience it fresh again.

Kegg wrote: View Post
^

Exactly, only it's a little more than that. I'll return to the coffee again: What purpose exactly did it serve for Ivanova to appropriate Takashima's character quirk of bending the regs to have real coffee on the station?
None at all, just as it didn't serve the story in any way what so ever. Most likely JMS simply forgot, afterall we never hear of it again.

Clearly, in terms of plots and arcs, absolutely nothing. It does however make sense when it's understood Ivanova is a replacement for Takashima, and not simply in the role the character occupied.
Except wasn't Takashima going to be the one in cahoots with Clarke (or was it homeguard)? Baring the coffee and being women, the two characters are nothing alike.

Characters that are brought in to replace outgoing ones, are usually only similar to their predecessors in that they fulfil a similar job. Otherwise their story arcs and personalities are really very much different.

As for Sinclair-Sheridan comparisons
Sinclair is the stoic well-read diplomat, appointed by the Minbari.
Sheridan is the passionate tactician, appointed by EarthGov.
The two characters are really very different.
Blamo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 7 2010, 03:58 AM   #780
Lindley
Moderator with a Soul
 
Location: Fairfax, VA
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Be careful. Remember that saying what a character isn't can also constitute a spoiler in some cases.
__________________
Lead Organizer for EVN: Firefly.
"So apparently the really smart zombies have automatic weapons!"
-Torg, Sluggy Freelance
Lindley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
babylon 5, episode discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.