RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,562
Posts: 5,423,163
Members: 24,809
Currently online: 473
Newest member: Dobian

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 15 2011, 02:26 AM   #2371
Evil Twin
Rear Admiral
 
Evil Twin's Avatar
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

LotR is the only bit of B5 I still haven't watched but from everything I've heard I'm probably better off remaining blissfully unexposed to it.
__________________
My DVD Collection
Evil Twin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 02:33 AM   #2372
David cgc
Vice Admiral
 
David cgc's Avatar
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Lindley wrote: View Post
And the music rocked.
I won't even give it that, since most of the music was second-hand from the canceled computer game.
__________________
“I come here to have fun and fuck around merrily. I expect to showered by all kind of random crap.”
iguana_tonante
David cgc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 06:09 AM   #2373
Admiral Shran
Admiral
 
Location: In the Before Time - the Long, Long Ago
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

The Legend of the Rangers (*)
Dear God! I'm thinking it was best that I read this review before watching this movie. I'll probably pass on this one.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
DS9 is next, it has been almost 5 years since I last watched it. For a Niner like me, that's an intolerable length of time. After DS9 I'm open to suggestions, including Farscape.
I say Stargate.
__________________
Vote Obomney 2012!
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: power attracts pathological personalities. It's not that power corrupts but that it's magnetic to the corruptible." - Frank Herbert, Dune
Admiral Shran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 06:11 AM   #2374
sidious618
Admiral
 
sidious618's Avatar
 
Location: New York, US
Send a message via AIM to sidious618
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Stargate is bleh, big step down from B5 and DS9. X-Files would be my choice as that has things which can actually be discussion worthy beyond "that line was funny."
__________________
We've met before, haven't we?
sidious618 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 04:02 PM   #2375
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
See, Legend of the Rangers is all about people seeming to do the same thing twice... but they're actually not. So I think JMS had a cunning plan.
But LotR's reveal at the end was that they pretended to be doing something else but they were actually doing the same thing as before.


The Lost Tales (*½)

There's two unrelated stories here and if there's a connection between them it's that the main characters in both took much too long to figure things out. I think that's what JMS was going for.

Story 1: Lochley, the priest, and the devil

It has been noted in the past that whenever Babylon 5 deals with religious material I tend to ridicule it, probably because I'm an atheist. That's half true. The concept of a god is one thing, but literal depictions of angels and demons are a bridge too far for me. Demons are as real to me as fairies are. B5 never had an episode about a fairy causing havoc on the station, but if it did then I imagine that many people would find it as ridiculous as I find having a demon causing havoc on the station.

Maybe I could just explain all the demon stuff away as being an alien masquerading as a demon? Perhaps the being that has inhabited Simon is no more a demon than Kosh was an angel. That's the way I'm going to rationalise it, naturally, but the episode seems to play all this stuff for reals. These beings have apparently been on Earth a long time, longer than the Vorlons or the other races if they're worried about an event that will happen in 5 billion years time. They also appear to be responsive to a Catholic exorcism ritual. Also, if they're really just misunderstood aliens then Lochley has condemned them to die on Earth (in 5 billion years) rather than trying to help them escape.

There's not really much of a plot here, but what little there is makes Lochley seem a quite silly, at least to me. Most people that were in charge of this situation would pull up the victim's background to see if there's anything suspicious before calling in a priest to perform an exorcism, that just seems like the logical way to go about things. But Lochley calls up the priest first before checking the records of the transport ship Simon was on. The episode plays this like a shocking revelation, but it leaves me questioning Lochley's competence.

Story 2: Sheridan, the Prince, and the wizard

It's a question that we're all asked at some point in our lives; if you had the opportunity to kill Hitler before he rose to power, would you take it? For me the answer is no. Not because I worry about disrupting the timeline, or because I love Hitler, but because I don't think killing Hitler would have addressed the problems that allowed him to come to power. If you want to prevent the rise of an extremist group in Germany in the 1930s then the best way to go about it is to avoid the perception of trying to humiliate Germany in the Treaty of Versailles, and prevent the causes of the Great Depression. Those are harder acts to pull off, but they are not only likely to get better results, they're also nicer things to do.

So when Galen shows up and tells Sheridan to kill Prince Vintari in order to save the future Earth, I was already thinking of better ways to pull that off that didn't involve murder. The fact that this is a revelation that Sheridan only comes up with at the last second makes me question his judgement as a political leader. Didn't he learn from that time when he impulsively declared war on the Centauri because people were yelling at him? Anyway, this revelation makes Sheridan realise this was Galen's plan all along, because that makes sense to him for some reason. Then Galen acts all smug and hints that that's the case.

Bullplop! I'm convinced that Galen's plan really was to have Sheridan murder the Prince, because Galen is wicked and vengeful. (Just look at what he tried to do to that friendly alien in the bubble.) Once Sheridan presented a better plan, Galen claimed it as his own like the smug git that he is. I'm basing this theory on an irrefutable fact; the fact that I don't like Galen.

Overall, the first story didn't work for me and the second story, while trying to present an interesting morality play, wasn't as good as I was hoping. Plus, it had Galen, that always costs a point or two.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 04:09 PM   #2376
Kegg
Rear Admiral
 
Kegg's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland.
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Story 1: Lochley, the priest, and the devil

It has been noted in the past that whenever Babylon 5 deals with religious material I tend to ridicule it, probably because I'm an atheist. That's half true. The concept of a god is one thing, but literal depictions of angels and demons are a bridge too far for me.
It's the curious thing about JMS, I guess, who is also an atheist, but who takes religion very seriously. This works better when he's writing about religion and ethics (Brad Dourif the monk, a bit of telegraphing in casting) and not so well whenever he starts dealing with religion and the supernatural... and is just downright dire the moment he starts parading anything related to Arthurian legendry around.

All that said I'd probably point to "And the Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place" as the show's best use of religion, a choice that I'm sure says more about me than anything else.
__________________
'Spock is always right, even when he's wrong. It's the tone of voice, the supernatural reasonability; this is not a man like us; this is a god.'
- Philip K. Dick
Kegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 06:25 PM   #2377
stonester1
Rear Admiral
 
stonester1's Avatar
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

RCO, fantastic ep. But then, I enjoyed both Arthurian eps, too.
__________________
"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells
stonester1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 06:38 PM   #2378
Admiral Shran
Admiral
 
Location: In the Before Time - the Long, Long Ago
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
The fact that this is a revelation that Sheridan only comes up with at the last second makes me question his judgement as a political leader.
I've been questioning his competence as a political leader for quite some time as well.
__________________
Vote Obomney 2012!
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: power attracts pathological personalities. It's not that power corrupts but that it's magnetic to the corruptible." - Frank Herbert, Dune
Admiral Shran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15 2011, 09:35 PM   #2379
hyzmarca
Fleet Captain
 
hyzmarca's Avatar
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

The Lost Tales, I think, is just a case of insufficient budget to do anything interesting. A telepath war movie would have been more interesting, but I don't think they would have been able to pay for it.
Legend of the Rangers suffers from being tacked on. It really doesn't have any place in the established 20-year plot arc.
hyzmarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16 2011, 02:18 AM   #2380
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Babylon 5 Review

It took far longer than I was expecting, but I have finally completed this journey. It's weird trying to recap a show that I watched over a year ago, so this final summary isn't going to be my finest hour.

Here's the graph for the ratings I gave to each episode of the show:



This may be the controversial bit; determining what to include in the final average from the show. I decided right away that Crusade shouldn't be included as that was a different show, but what about the movies? Well, I included all of them except for A Call to Arms and The Legend of the Rangers as they were pretty much pilots for different shows. All the other movies were centred on Babylon 5 or the characters from the show so I included them in the total. That makes 115 episodes or movies and an average score of 6.122. (Including Crusade and the other two movies, that average drops to 5.984.)

By my standards, that's a very good score. (I'd point out that it's way ahead of my scores for Voyager and Enterprise, but that was probably a given from the start. ) The trend line shows what everyone already knows, it starts out as an average show and improves greatly from there.



This graph says a lot, I rated the vast majority of episodes as average or better, and there's a high proportion of 7s. Strangely, it has the same number of 10s as Voyager, but only one 0 score. This is a very solid show. Overall, I rated 21 episodes below average, 18 episodes average, and 76 above average.

I usually rank what I consider to be the top and bottom 10 episodes, but because the show isn't fresh in my mind I can't do that this time. So here's my top and bottom 1.

115. Infection
...
1. Intersections in Real Time


The Characters

Once again, I'm not going to go into much detail here because of the year-long gap between viewing the show and writing this, so here's my brief opinion: I like most of the characters. I even liked Byron a little bit, which probably has some of you cursing my name.

My clear favourites are Londo and G'Kar, which is probably the most uncontroversial opinion anyone has every expressed about this show. They're fascinating characters that can easily straddle the gap between comedy and high drama, sometimes in the same sentence. Then there's characters like Vir and Lennier that I initially thought I was going to hate, but I ended up liking them as well. The human characters were often overshadowed by the aliens, but they were okay, and I liked some of the stuff that Franklin and Garibaldi got up to.


Statistics

Captain Greyshirt: 22
Scott Bakula: 94
Scott Bakula?!: 4

Season 1 Average: 5.045
Season 2 Average: 5.682
Season 3 Average: 6.5
Season 4 Average: 7.136
Season 5 Average: 6.545
Overall Average: 6.121

Crusade Average: 4.538
Voyager Average: 4.875
Enterprise Average: 5.206


Final Judgement

I'm not going to say that it was a mistake for me to give up on Babylon 5 after four episodes the first time I tried to watch it, it was a rough time in my life and Rome relaxed me in a way that B5 didn't. (That's probably the first time anyone has called Rome relaxing.) But I am glad that I finally gave the show a second chance, it ended up providing quite a ride. One day I will probably give the show another viewing from beginning to end, and perhaps then I may be more forgiving to some of the show's weaker early episodes.

I think I'll end this with an anecdote. While watching the final episode of Crusade, seeing the characters walk around the old Babylon 5 sets, I found myself missing that place. The sets aren't fancy, they demonstrate the show's low budget in many ways, but I grew attached to them all the same. I may not be fanatical about the show, but I am a fan.

Don't groan! It's the best that I could come up with. I'd like to see you do better you miserable sons of...

Fin
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16 2011, 02:31 PM   #2381
Admiral Shran
Admiral
 
Location: In the Before Time - the Long, Long Ago
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I may not be fanatical about the show, but I am a fan.
Same here. This first viewing of B5 was quite a ride for me as well. I certainly didn't like it quite as much as you did (there are plenty of things, even in the later seasons, that make me just scratch my head, groan or go ), but I still consider myself a fan. There were plenty of episodes that I thought were rated rather highly (an oddity for you), but there were also some I thought you were too harsh to - so rest assured.

As for the characters - definitely Londo and G'Kar are the best (for obvious reasons) followed very closely by Lennier (for reasons I stated upthread). As for the worst - Galen, Byron and Ivanova. I still can't stand any of them.

So, it's on to Stargate now, right?
__________________
Vote Obomney 2012!
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: power attracts pathological personalities. It's not that power corrupts but that it's magnetic to the corruptible." - Frank Herbert, Dune
Admiral Shran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16 2011, 05:08 PM   #2382
Stevil2001
Rear Admiral
 
Stevil2001's Avatar
 
Location: 2010
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Smallville, surely.
__________________
"I don't like adventure. I'm a stay-at-home-and-read kind of guy."
Science's Less Accurate Grandmother
Stevil2001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16 2011, 08:35 PM   #2383
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

For those of you that want me to review Stargate, here's the thread.

For those of you that want me to review Farscape, here's the thread.

For those of you that want me to review The X-Files, here's the thread.

__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16 2011, 09:04 PM   #2384
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

I still think the "no walls" weapons pod was a great idea poorly executed. If it had worked more subtly - for instance, if she'd fired the weapons by simply pointing, or looking sternly at the target, it might have been pretty cool. But the kung-fu just looked absurd.

And... "We live for the one, we die for the one" was never meant to indicate you HAVE to die if you can help it! Geez!
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16 2011, 09:28 PM   #2385
Hound of UIster
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
See, Legend of the Rangers is all about people seeming to do the same thing twice... but they're actually not. So I think JMS had a cunning plan.
I agree.

It's clear to me after all these years that the villains weren't an ancient race like the Shadows or the 3rd Space Aliens, but rather got their hand on some advanced First One tech and were just playing pretend like the Wizard of Oz.
__________________
Lex Luthor is a true American hero.
Hound of UIster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
babylon 5, episode discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.