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Old May 9 2010, 11:36 PM   #1651
David cgc
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Franklin's dad was one of those things JMS kept saying he sort of wanted to mention, but there was never a good time for it. Suffice it to say, he was a good soldier and didn't join the rebels.
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Old May 10 2010, 10:42 AM   #1652
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Trivia time: Franklin getting his ass kicked hand having to crawl for help is based on a real experience. JMS was mugged and beaten by a street gang in San Diago and had to literally drag himself several blocks to get help. You may recall a similar instance with Garibaldi way back in 'Chrysalis'. On a totally unrelated note, in B5's universe, San Diago was nuked by terrorists and is now an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland.
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Old May 10 2010, 11:46 AM   #1653
Can
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Reverend wrote: View Post
Trivia time: Franklin getting his ass kicked hand having to crawl for help is based on a real experience. JMS was mugged and beaten by a street gang in San Diago and had to literally drag himself several blocks to get help. You may recall a similar instance with Garibaldi way back in 'Chrysalis'. On a totally unrelated note, in B5's universe, San Diago was nuked by terrorists and is now an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland.
And I lived in San Diego for two years ! I even tried some walkabout in downtown inspired from Babylon 5...but I always got back when it was dark took lesson from JMS's actual experience. I also met JMS at Comic Con 2008 in San Diego.
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Old May 10 2010, 06:13 PM   #1654
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
With the Shadows I have no understanding of their motivation, they just have big black ships that are blowing things up for some reason. It's possible I'll finally get that revelation in the next episode, I guess I'll find out tonight.
You just might.
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Old May 10 2010, 06:19 PM   #1655
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Actually by now part of their motives could already be guessed.
But the fun thing about the B5 universe is there's always new facets to be discovered on something you thought you already knew.
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Old May 10 2010, 08:56 PM   #1656
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Z'ha'dum (****½)

So the Shadows aren't evil, they just have a different point of view? That makes them far more interesting. I'm still a little confused about the details though. The Shadows want to force conflict between the minor races, but why do they attack themselves rather than letting the various races kill one another? Did the Vorlons and Minbari really win the last war, or did the Shadows just decide that it was time to stop and go back into hibernation? Surely by uniting to fight the Shadows the various races are doing exactly what the Shadows want them to do. Not that they have much choice. If the Shadows can destroy B5 then why don't they? If they don't want to destroy B5, why did they do so in that alternate timeline? Why can't the Vorlons just kill off the Shadows and be done with it? Are the Shadows even telling the truth?

So many questions. I hope I get some answers.

The finale was good, although there were certain cliffhanger-y elements I wasn't so impressed by, such as Sheridan falling to what almost certainly wont be his death. Sheridan being put through an emotional wringer because of his wife, no longer being able to trust Delenn, going to Z'ha'dum on a suicide mission... all interesting stuff. And some answers too.

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Old May 10 2010, 09:13 PM   #1657
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

They only attack to stirr things up among other races. They only engage in open warfare where the blame can be put squarely on them if they have something to gain out of it...or their back is to the wall.
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Old May 10 2010, 09:22 PM   #1658
Fist McStrongpunch
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
such as Sheridan falling to what almost certainly wont be his death.
Heh.
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Old May 10 2010, 10:09 PM   #1659
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Whatever anyone may think of this whole season, it was worth it for G'Kar's monologue at the end. It still chokes me up.
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Old May 10 2010, 11:49 PM   #1660
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Z'ha'dum. Damn that was a hell of an episode. It's what got me hooked on the show back when sci-fi was airing them again. I had no idea what was going on but I knew that I loved it.
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Old May 10 2010, 11:51 PM   #1661
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
If the Shadows can destroy B5 then why don't they?
Their plans just got changed after Sheridan's unexpected (by them) assault.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
If they don't want to destroy B5, why did they do so in that alternate timeline?
The Shadows had many more ships since Babylon 4 hadn't destroyed them in the past in the alternate timeline. The destruction of Babylon 5 happened 8 days after the start of the "War Without End" episode which would have been before Sheridan had a chance to go to Z'ha'dum. It's possible that Garibaldi's rigging of the fusion reactors (which he mentioned to Sinclair in the flash-forward) is actually what destroyed the station.
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Old May 11 2010, 12:29 AM   #1662
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
So the Shadows aren't evil, they just have a different point of view? That makes them far more interesting.
Yeah, this is one of the reasons I was impressed with B-5. Actually giving the forces of darkness and destruction a real motivation, a genuine philosophy, a line of reasoning, rather than just being "evil" was a welcome change from most depictions of the "great darkness" I'd come across in fiction. The Shadow's actions and approaches may be viewed by other races as "evil", but the Shadows themselves are operating on the basis of morality- just a morality that differs greatly from ours. It was the best of both worlds- you had the ancient, chaotic darkness moving back into the world and which had to be opposed by our heroes, but also a credible ideology for that dark force that gave the situation depth and meaning- and of course changes how we relate to the conflict.
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Old May 11 2010, 07:45 AM   #1663
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

The Shadows want to force conflict between the minor races, but why do they attack themselves rather than letting the various races kill one another?
I tend to think the induced infighting is just the initial phase to weed out the weaker races and see who rises to the top. They originally backed the Centauri so they'd start annexing smaller worlds and frighten the others into secret alliances with the Shadows who (playing both sides against the middle) urge them on to make war on their neighbours. The final phase is as it was 1000 years ago, they attack openly and start pruning the bushes they'd been cultivating.

Did the Vorlons and Minbari really win the last war, or did the Shadows just decide that it was time to stop and go back into hibernation?
A bit of both. They were fought to a standstill so they seeded their remaining ships on distant worlds (like Mars & Ganymede) and fell back to Z'ha'dum.

Surely by uniting to fight the Shadows the various races are doing exactly what the Shadows want them to do. Not that they have much choice.

If the Shadows can destroy B5 then why don't they? If they don't want to destroy B5, why did they do so in that alternate timeline?
Different timeline, different circumstances. In the alternate timeline the Shadows didn't destroy the station, Garibaldi did. The Shadows were boarding it, presumably to capture it for their own purposes and when it looked certain they'd win, with Sheridan dead and Ivanova not far behind, Garibaldi rigged the fusion reactor to blow and made his last stand while sending Sinclair to take the last shuttle off the station.

As for why they didn't do it this time round; Sheridan's actions changed the game a little, which will of course be addressed in season 4.

Why can't the Vorlons just kill off the Shadows and be done with it? Are the Shadows even telling the truth?
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Old May 11 2010, 02:58 PM   #1664
Can
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

You must admit that Sheridan knows how to conclude a divorce. Take a couple of nuclear bombs and drop them on your ex wife's head !
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Last edited by Can; May 11 2010 at 04:51 PM.
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Old May 11 2010, 04:26 PM   #1665
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

Can wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Trivia time: Franklin getting his ass kicked hand having to crawl for help is based on a real experience. JMS was mugged and beaten by a street gang in San Diago and had to literally drag himself several blocks to get help. You may recall a similar instance with Garibaldi way back in 'Chrysalis'. On a totally unrelated note, in B5's universe, San Diago was nuked by terrorists and is now an uninhabitable radioactive wasteland.
And I lived in San Diego for two years ! I even tried some walkabout in downtown inspired from Babylon 5...but I always got back when it was dark took lesson from JMS's actual experience. I also met JMS at Comic Con 2008 in San Diego.
I grew up in San Diego, and lived there the majority of my life.

When I was in high school, downtown was not where you wanted to get caught alone at night. I can only imagine what it was like when JMS was living in San Diego.

Now, it's mostly restaurants, trendy clubs, and high-rise condos.
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