DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

[Snaploud]

Plain Simple wrote:

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Boyd's motivations turned out to make no sense. So first he actively pursues the wiping technology and then, once he has succeeded in developing it, he uses the "it's out there now, we better use it before others will" excuse? That's just lame.

If you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a second:

Boyd does potentially have the opportunity to create one world order via the quick development and use of such technology (though, the longevity of such a world order is open to debate). If, however, he waits until people independently create such technology, it's likely that you end up with a war such as seen in Epilogue 1 (with rival countries each attacking each other in an effort to gain an edge). Such a result would likely mean the complete and total destruction of the human race (or at least civilization). Boyd's actions--while on the surface immoral--have the potential to save human civilization at least in some form.

[Guy Gardener]

I agree, but there are different ethical limitations applied to world conquerors.

[propita]

No surprise Mellie died (though I thought it sad)--how many times has it been said that "everyone must sacrifice"?

[StarshipDefiant]

While sad due to the events and the series ending, I am somewhat pleased with the wrap up of the series to date (technically, this was the finale, with "Epitaph Two: Return" being the coda), and am looking forward to what the final episode will hold (albeit sad it is the final one). Should be a good one, if the promos mean anything...

[Kaijima]

Unfortunately, I get the impression that this episode was hit hardest by the re-write to end the series. Getting Closer, last week, felt like a full story and was paced correctly. Hollow Men is jumbled. Also, on a petty level, I gotta say the ending was a rip-off - if they loaded Boyd up with explosives, we should have seen his death on-screen and the building go up. Not a horrible comp of Echo running down a hall with cheap flames behind her. Then the outside the building with not even smoke in the sky.

As for Boyd's motivations, well, unless he gets more development in the finale thanks to a personality backup activating in another body, we're kinda stuck with the rushed editing of Hollow Men. It's a shame.

For my money, I can kinda see what they're getting at, with Boyd. I can kinda swallow it. Reading between the lines of his jumbled explanation, what Boyd was actually saying, was that the technology was going to destroy mankind, and his goal wasn't to like, take over /directly/ but to become the Kindly Big Brother to the world. Rossum's 20 Houses might be like staging bases, that would be converted into strike team centers (as if they can't function that way already) where actives are sent out to fight a secret war against the countries that are trying to achieve and weaponize mindstate technology.

In a twisted way, I think it is implied that Boyd had an idealistic if twisted vision of Rossum truly being the good guys; a superhero organization with teams around the world who would fight to keep everyone safe from genuinely evil people and terrorists. And, people like Alpha being in the world make a great case for Rossum. That's just ONE guy with imprint technology. And look at the shit he can call down with a snap of his fingers.

However, along the way, Rossum became a thug themselves, willing to murder and willing to use crazy people to achieve their ends. Though, if there would have been more time for development, I think we might have seen that while Boyd was off chasing his theories about Caroline, Rossum was perverted by the various copies of Clyde running around - Clyde's distributed mindstate version seems to be a twisted, power hungry bastard. I can't help but get the feeling Boyd was a victim of his own ambition and his own organization, to a degree.

And Boyd did loose it a little at the very end; his babbling about "family" seemed a hint that underneath his controlled exterior, he had gone even crazier than you'd think.

[ialfan]

Something about this episode didn't grab me or leave me as satisfied as "Getting Closer" and the six episodes before that but I enjoyed it and don't think that they could've wrapped things up much better even if they had a year to write the script for this episode.

The lack of outside damage to the building at the end bothered me as well as the somewhat lacking Rossum security personal. I think it's funny that Boyd didn't like Paul despite seeming to be his biggest ally during this season and the finale of last season.

I voted Above Average due to my above concerns plus my wondering why no one thinks one of the other Dollhouse's won't step up to take Boyd and Clyde's place. It makes the other Dollhouse's seem useless to not be involved in any of this in some way.

Here's hoping Epitaph Two is as satisfying a finale as "Not Fade Away" was for Angel. I plan to rewatch the series after it airs.

[Kaijima]

I wonder what the betting pool is like on the idea that Epitaph 2 is going to have some sort of mindfuck involved and nothing we've seen so far adds up like we think it does. I realize that E2 is a coda, but still.

It would be dark even for Joss, but...

What if everything seen after The Attic is still taking place in the Rossumatrix and Adele did NOT send Echo to the Attic as part of a Xantos Gambit? The edit revealing what Adele actually told Echo before boxing her seemed suspicious to me; revising memories.

It could be that the Epitaph world is, indeed, wholly virtual and always has been. This would allow Dominic to return for the finale. It also means that we cannot trust any reveals made after The Attic. Boyd may not be the head of Rossum. It could be Clyde 2.0 and only him as the crazy mofo at the top. While this is a long shot, it would make the scene in Caroline's memory where she meets Clyde then Boyd walks out of the shadows more interesting - as if Boyd, at that moment, was suddenly generated from nothing as a plot twist in Echo's virtual delusion.

Meanwhile, in reality, the actual Boyd could be fighting with Adele and Rossum, and Alpha could play into the endgame in the real world. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Alpha returned and rescued Echo from the Attic?

[Forbin]

I kinda don't want to find out we've been watching The Matrix.

[StarshipDefiant]

Forbin wrote:

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I kinda don't want to find out we've been watching The Matrix.

Yeah, I agree except for one or two cases, I've never been to fond of those type of endings. It does partially make sense though.

[hyzmarca]

What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.

[StarshipDefiant]

hyzmarca wrote:

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What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.

I think that's supposed to somewhat be the point behind Caroline, she saw them as evil and figured to stop them, she needed to start blowing up their buildings. I think Adelle herself said that Caroline was dangerous because she is (along the lines) an idealist (or was it optimist?)

[Kaijima]

StarshipDefiant wrote:

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I think that's supposed to somewhat be the point behind Caroline, she saw them as evil and figured to stop them, she needed to start blowing up their buildings. I think Adelle herself said that Caroline was dangerous because she is (along the lines) an idealist (or was it optimist?)

I think, ironically, it is sort of required by the character development for Caroline to end up being a less complete person than Echo. If Caroline was fully revealed to be the better person, then Echo is stuck with the right thing to do being to allow herself to "die" and Caroline to fully come back. Which, would have been one way to do it.

But, Echo is clearly our heroine, and even if Joss doesn't like happy endings, he DOES like his central hero remaining the central hero (even if dark and tortured). So, Caroline had to end up being a less impressive person who we don't really want back, in the end.

It is possible though that Epitaph 2 will fully explain that Caroline has fused with Echo over ten years and transformed into a more mature version of herself.

[Hermiod]

Voted Excellent for this one, not much else to say other than that.

[StarshipDefiant]

Kaijima wrote:

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I think, ironically, it is sort of required by the character development for Caroline to end up being a less complete person than Echo. If Caroline was fully revealed to be the better person, then Echo is stuck with the right thing to do being to allow herself to "die" and Caroline to fully come back. Which, would have been one way to do it.

But, Echo is clearly our heroine, and even if Joss doesn't like happy endings, he DOES like his central hero remaining the central hero (even if dark and tortured). So, Caroline had to end up being a less impressive person who we don't really want back, in the end.

It is possible though that Epitaph 2 will fully explain that Caroline has fused with Echo over ten years and transformed into a more mature version of herself.

I think it's been hinted this will happen, Echo is pretty confident in a battle of the wills, Caroline would lose but Ivy was pretty sure that Caroline could win if strong enough.

[Snaploud]

hyzmarca wrote:

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Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions.

I think that was the idea. We've seen such logic *work* on way too many tv shows and movies. In this case, we get smacked over the head with the reality that they've just delayed the apocalypse by a few years (perhaps making it much worse).