RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,515
Posts: 5,511,733
Members: 25,137
Currently online: 575
Newest member: VonDingle

TrekToday headlines

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

View Poll Results: How do you grade HOLLOW MEN?
EXCELLENT 14 42.42%
ABOVE AVERAGE 13 39.39%
AVERAGE 4 12.12%
BELOW AVERAGE 2 6.06%
POOR 0 0%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 16 2010, 11:54 PM   #31
Snaploud
Admiral
 
Snaploud's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Plain Simple wrote: View Post
Boyd's motivations turned out to make no sense. So first he actively pursues the wiping technology and then, once he has succeeded in developing it, he uses the "it's out there now, we better use it before others will" excuse? That's just lame.
If you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a second:

Boyd does potentially have the opportunity to create one world order via the quick development and use of such technology (though, the longevity of such a world order is open to debate). If, however, he waits until people independently create such technology, it's likely that you end up with a war such as seen in Epilogue 1 (with rival countries each attacking each other in an effort to gain an edge). Such a result would likely mean the complete and total destruction of the human race (or at least civilization). Boyd's actions--while on the surface immoral--have the potential to save human civilization at least in some form.
Snaploud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 12:12 AM   #32
Guy Gardener
Fleet Admiral
 
Guy Gardener's Avatar
 
Location: In the lap of squalor I assure you.
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

I agree, but there are different ethical limitations applied to world conquerors.
__________________
"Glitter is the herpes of arts and craft."

Troy Yingst. My Life as Liz
Guy Gardener is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 03:30 AM   #33
propita
Rear Admiral
 
Location: fresno, ca, us
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

No surprise Mellie died (though I thought it sad)--how many times has it been said that "everyone must sacrifice"?
propita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 04:29 AM   #34
StarshipDefiant
Captain
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

While sad due to the events and the series ending, I am somewhat pleased with the wrap up of the series to date (technically, this was the finale, with "Epitaph Two: Return" being the coda), and am looking forward to what the final episode will hold (albeit sad it is the final one). Should be a good one, if the promos mean anything...
__________________
Mal: I aim to misbehave
Whiskey: I know where to find food. In the kitchen.
Bennett: D-did you just...try to tase me?
StarshipDefiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 04:35 AM   #35
Kaijima
Captain
 
Kaijima's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Unfortunately, I get the impression that this episode was hit hardest by the re-write to end the series. Getting Closer, last week, felt like a full story and was paced correctly. Hollow Men is jumbled. Also, on a petty level, I gotta say the ending was a rip-off - if they loaded Boyd up with explosives, we should have seen his death on-screen and the building go up. Not a horrible comp of Echo running down a hall with cheap flames behind her. Then the outside the building with not even smoke in the sky.

As for Boyd's motivations, well, unless he gets more development in the finale thanks to a personality backup activating in another body, we're kinda stuck with the rushed editing of Hollow Men. It's a shame.

For my money, I can kinda see what they're getting at, with Boyd. I can kinda swallow it. Reading between the lines of his jumbled explanation, what Boyd was actually saying, was that the technology was going to destroy mankind, and his goal wasn't to like, take over /directly/ but to become the Kindly Big Brother to the world. Rossum's 20 Houses might be like staging bases, that would be converted into strike team centers (as if they can't function that way already) where actives are sent out to fight a secret war against the countries that are trying to achieve and weaponize mindstate technology.

In a twisted way, I think it is implied that Boyd had an idealistic if twisted vision of Rossum truly being the good guys; a superhero organization with teams around the world who would fight to keep everyone safe from genuinely evil people and terrorists. And, people like Alpha being in the world make a great case for Rossum. That's just ONE guy with imprint technology. And look at the shit he can call down with a snap of his fingers.

However, along the way, Rossum became a thug themselves, willing to murder and willing to use crazy people to achieve their ends. Though, if there would have been more time for development, I think we might have seen that while Boyd was off chasing his theories about Caroline, Rossum was perverted by the various copies of Clyde running around - Clyde's distributed mindstate version seems to be a twisted, power hungry bastard. I can't help but get the feeling Boyd was a victim of his own ambition and his own organization, to a degree.

And Boyd did loose it a little at the very end; his babbling about "family" seemed a hint that underneath his controlled exterior, he had gone even crazier than you'd think.
Kaijima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 05:28 AM   #36
ialfan
Fleet Captain
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Something about this episode didn't grab me or leave me as satisfied as "Getting Closer" and the six episodes before that but I enjoyed it and don't think that they could've wrapped things up much better even if they had a year to write the script for this episode.

The lack of outside damage to the building at the end bothered me as well as the somewhat lacking Rossum security personal. I think it's funny that Boyd didn't like Paul despite seeming to be his biggest ally during this season and the finale of last season.

I voted Above Average due to my above concerns plus my wondering why no one thinks one of the other Dollhouse's won't step up to take Boyd and Clyde's place. It makes the other Dollhouse's seem useless to not be involved in any of this in some way.

Here's hoping Epitaph Two is as satisfying a finale as "Not Fade Away" was for Angel. I plan to rewatch the series after it airs.
ialfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 07:39 PM   #37
Kaijima
Captain
 
Kaijima's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

I wonder what the betting pool is like on the idea that Epitaph 2 is going to have some sort of mindfuck involved and nothing we've seen so far adds up like we think it does. I realize that E2 is a coda, but still.

It would be dark even for Joss, but...
Kaijima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 11:11 PM   #38
Forbin
Admiral
 
Forbin's Avatar
 
Location: I said out, dammit!
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

I kinda don't want to find out we've been watching The Matrix.
Forbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17 2010, 11:19 PM   #39
StarshipDefiant
Captain
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Forbin wrote: View Post
I kinda don't want to find out we've been watching The Matrix.
Yeah, I agree except for one or two cases, I've never been to fond of those type of endings. It does partially make sense though.
__________________
Mal: I aim to misbehave
Whiskey: I know where to find food. In the kitchen.
Bennett: D-did you just...try to tase me?
StarshipDefiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2010, 03:12 AM   #40
hyzmarca
Fleet Captain
 
hyzmarca's Avatar
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.
hyzmarca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2010, 03:30 AM   #41
StarshipDefiant
Captain
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.
I think that's supposed to somewhat be the point behind Caroline, she saw them as evil and figured to stop them, she needed to start blowing up their buildings. I think Adelle herself said that Caroline was dangerous because she is (along the lines) an idealist (or was it optimist?)
__________________
Mal: I aim to misbehave
Whiskey: I know where to find food. In the kitchen.
Bennett: D-did you just...try to tase me?
StarshipDefiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2010, 07:43 AM   #42
Kaijima
Captain
 
Kaijima's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

StarshipDefiant wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.
I think that's supposed to somewhat be the point behind Caroline, she saw them as evil and figured to stop them, she needed to start blowing up their buildings. I think Adelle herself said that Caroline was dangerous because she is (along the lines) an idealist (or was it optimist?)
I think, ironically, it is sort of required by the character development for Caroline to end up being a less complete person than Echo. If Caroline was fully revealed to be the better person, then Echo is stuck with the right thing to do being to allow herself to "die" and Caroline to fully come back. Which, would have been one way to do it.

But, Echo is clearly our heroine, and even if Joss doesn't like happy endings, he DOES like his central hero remaining the central hero (even if dark and tortured). So, Caroline had to end up being a less impressive person who we don't really want back, in the end.

It is possible though that Epitaph 2 will fully explain that Caroline has fused with Echo over ten years and transformed into a more mature version of herself.
Kaijima is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2010, 07:49 AM   #43
Hermiod
Admiral
 
Hermiod's Avatar
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Voted Excellent for this one, not much else to say other than that.
Hermiod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2010, 09:24 AM   #44
StarshipDefiant
Captain
 
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Kaijima wrote: View Post
StarshipDefiant wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.
I think that's supposed to somewhat be the point behind Caroline, she saw them as evil and figured to stop them, she needed to start blowing up their buildings. I think Adelle herself said that Caroline was dangerous because she is (along the lines) an idealist (or was it optimist?)
I think, ironically, it is sort of required by the character development for Caroline to end up being a less complete person than Echo. If Caroline was fully revealed to be the better person, then Echo is stuck with the right thing to do being to allow herself to "die" and Caroline to fully come back. Which, would have been one way to do it.

But, Echo is clearly our heroine, and even if Joss doesn't like happy endings, he DOES like his central hero remaining the central hero (even if dark and tortured). So, Caroline had to end up being a less impressive person who we don't really want back, in the end.

It is possible though that Epitaph 2 will fully explain that Caroline has fused with Echo over ten years and transformed into a more mature version of herself.
I think it's been hinted this will happen, Echo is pretty confident in a battle of the wills, Caroline would lose but Ivy was pretty sure that Caroline could win if strong enough.
__________________
Mal: I aim to misbehave
Whiskey: I know where to find food. In the kitchen.
Bennett: D-did you just...try to tase me?
StarshipDefiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2010, 01:10 PM   #45
Snaploud
Admiral
 
Snaploud's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions.
I think that was the idea. We've seen such logic *work* on way too many tv shows and movies. In this case, we get smacked over the head with the reality that they've just delayed the apocalypse by a few years (perhaps making it much worse).
Snaploud is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
dollhouse, dushku, november, victor, whedon

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.