RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,915
Posts: 5,388,913
Members: 24,717
Currently online: 615
Newest member: fanshere

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 8 2010, 03:09 PM   #46
snakespeare
Commander
 
snakespeare's Avatar
 
Location: Northwestern USA
Send a message via Yahoo to snakespeare
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

Time will tell. (Sorry, couldn't resist)
snakespeare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 04:24 PM   #47
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

Checked with Jaime Costas this morning. The title has already been fixed.

It's definitely THE HAZARD OF CONCEALING. Singular.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 05:04 PM   #48
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

^Cool. Now what the blazes does it mean?
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 06:05 PM   #49
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Cool. Now what the blazes does it mean?

That would be telling . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 07:00 PM   #50
snakespeare
Commander
 
snakespeare's Avatar
 
Location: Northwestern USA
Send a message via Yahoo to snakespeare
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

But parallel timelines are a real prediction of the Everett-Wheeler interpretation of quantum physics, whereas both classical and quantum theoretical approaches to the physics of time travel conclusively rule out the possibility of any event being "erased" by time travel.
The thing that often puts me at odds when discussing these things is that either I can't understand other people or they can't understand me. I will try. The wave function collapse is a metaphor. Whether or not the cat is dead is a set of probabilities, which is called the wave. Nothing happens when you actually look, you just find out what IS, and that is called the collapse. Sure, all the possible states can be expressed by the imagining pre-observer, but to say that all of them exist (the many-worlds theory) until you actually observe and collapse the wave? Isn't that like believing everything you think? I'm being a little like Einstein here when I ask, but isn't there an objective reality about which we are ignorant until we discover the hidden parameters?

I am sorry if this is thread diverting. Maybe it isn't. Can we discuss time travel in this thread? I hope so.

As to your other question:
... what are you proposing? That they tell original-timeline stories with Pine, Quinto, Urban, and the movie cast in faithful recreations of the original sets and costumes?
No. I'm a niner. I didn't want them to re-make (and totally change) TOS. I wanted my damn DS9 movie!
snakespeare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 07:13 PM   #51
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

snakespeare wrote: View Post

No. I'm a niner. I didn't want them to re-make (and totally change) TOS. I wanted my damn DS9 movie!
Only in an alternate reality!

(Sorry. Couldn't resist.)
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 07:32 PM   #52
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Cool. Now what the blazes does it mean?

That would be telling . . .
In the current context, the problems of Spock sitting on information that could make Starfleet the baddest mofos in the galaxy in very short order.

Logically, the information should be withheld to prevent further damage to an already damaged timeline.

Also, logically, the information should be freely given since the timeline is already screwed up beyond recognition, all bets are off, so Spock might as well do what he can to ensure that the Federation be made the baddest mofos in the galaxy in very short order.
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 07:55 PM   #53
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

snakespeare wrote: View Post
You can't know that, not unless you are J.J.Abrams.
It's not even just up to Abrams, so...

The "new timeline", which is technically an alternate timeline...
Oh, is it?

I suppose it's important to be technically precise about made-up stuff. I suppose.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 08:01 PM   #54
snakespeare
Commander
 
snakespeare's Avatar
 
Location: Northwestern USA
Send a message via Yahoo to snakespeare
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

^Well, to touch on the quantum mechanics discussion, too, the wave of probabilities of what the next two movies might be has not yet collapsed, so, for now, we are both right.
snakespeare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 08:48 PM   #55
Snaploud
Admiral
 
Snaploud's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

I love the cover for the Hazard of Concealing, like the cover for Refugees, am ambivalent toward the cover for More Beautiful Than Death, and hate the cover for Seek a Newer World.
Snaploud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 09:29 PM   #56
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

snakespeare wrote: View Post
The thing that often puts me at odds when discussing these things is that either I can't understand other people or they can't understand me. I will try. The wave function collapse is a metaphor. Whether or not the cat is dead is a set of probabilities, which is called the wave. Nothing happens when you actually look, you just find out what IS, and that is called the collapse.
Actually that's not correct. The multiple states of the particle are real, not merely a metaphor for human uncertainty. A quantum particle can exist in multiple states at once (a superposition), but if it interacts with a larger ensemble of particles -- such as a measuring device or a living observer -- each of the particles in that ensemble will take on their own superposed states in response. In one interpretation of quantum physics, the decoherence model, the particles in the ensemble all have different superposed states that average out to a single macroscopic "classical" state. Everything that interacts with the particle reacts to it as though it were "collapsed" into one state.

But in the Many-Worlds interpretation... well, I'll quote Harry Kim from Places of Exile:
"But the other theory was that the different states [in the ensemble] aligned and reinforced each other in what’s called a coherent superposition, so that the whole macroscopic system -- the atom, the poison, the cat, the scientist, and everything that interacted with them -- ended up in two distinct states at once, each isolated from the other, effectively splitting the universe into two different realities. Both made up of the same particles, but experiencing different histories from that point on. When you measure a particle, it still looks like it collapsed into one state, because you can only see the state that aligns with the timeline you’re in. One copy of you sees a live cat, the other sees a dead cat."
Either way, it's the single classical state that's an illusion, a simplification of what's really going on. To make a rough analogy -- imagine that you have mixed feelings about something a friend says, but you choose to act as though you're unambiguously happy about it. Or else you choose to get mad about it. Or whatever. In any case, even though multiple states still exist within you, the other entities you interact with only perceive one, and the interaction constrains you to behave as though you're in a single, resolved state. It would be wrong to say you were only in one state all along and your observers didn't know which one until they asked. You really were in multiple states, and still are after the interaction, but your observers only measure one. (That's the decoherence version. In Many-Worlds, the timeline splits and one of you acts happy, one acts mad, etc. But in each individual timeline, the observers only see one of your multiple states.)


Sure, all the possible states can be expressed by the imagining pre-observer, but to say that all of them exist (the many-worlds theory) until you actually observe and collapse the wave? Isn't that like believing everything you think?
No. This is one of the most pervasive misunderstandings of quantum theory -- that it's somehow saying "thinking makes it so." Any interaction with the larger universe causes the multiple states of the isolated particle to behave as if they've collapsed into a single state. Observation by an intelligent being is merely one example of such an interaction. The reason scientists speak of it specifically in terms of observation and measurement is because that's the context in which scientists work, and scientists prefer to speak about their specific results rather than broader generalizations. They don't say "This is cosmic truth handed down from on high," they say "This is the result of our experiments and observations." Unfortunately, to the ears of the non-scientist, the emphasis on observers comes off sounding much more mystical.


I'm being a little like Einstein here when I ask, but isn't there an objective reality about which we are ignorant until we discover the hidden parameters?
Not in the sense I think you mean. Objective reality is far more ambiguous than subjective reality. In relativity, our perceptions of time, motion, and distance are functions of our frame of reference, and there is no absolute value for any of them. Similarly, in quantum physics, our measurements of the universe's state are only partial, a consequence of the way we measure, and the underlying reality is far more complex.


Anyway, the point for the purposes of this conversation is that Many-Worlds is a solid, if unproven, scientific theory and thus a sound basis for science fiction. The premise of multiple timelines existing side-by-side is vastly more plausible than the premise of one timeline being "rewritten" by time travellers -- a concept that doesn't even make any logical sense, because if one thing changes into another, that requires the passage of time, a before and an after, and how can a single moment in time come before or after itself? If there are two versions of the same instant, then by definition they coexist simultaneously rather than one "changing" into the other.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 10:33 PM   #57
CaptainDonovin
Fleet Captain
 
CaptainDonovin's Avatar
 
Location: Labrador City. woof
View CaptainDonovin's Twitter Profile
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

snakespeare wrote: View Post
But parallel timelines are a real prediction of the Everett-Wheeler interpretation of quantum physics, whereas both classical and quantum theoretical approaches to the physics of time travel conclusively rule out the possibility of any event being "erased" by time travel.
The thing that often puts me at odds when discussing these things is that either I can't understand other people or they can't understand me. I will try. The wave function collapse is a metaphor. Whether or not the cat is dead is a set of probabilities, which is called the wave. Nothing happens when you actually look, you just find out what IS, and that is called the collapse. Sure, all the possible states can be expressed by the imagining pre-observer, but to say that all of them exist (the many-worlds theory) until you actually observe and collapse the wave? Isn't that like believing everything you think? I'm being a little like Einstein here when I ask, but isn't there an objective reality about which we are ignorant until we discover the hidden parameters?

I am sorry if this is thread diverting. Maybe it isn't. Can we discuss time travel in this thread? I hope so.

As to your other question:
... what are you proposing? That they tell original-timeline stories with Pine, Quinto, Urban, and the movie cast in faithful recreations of the original sets and costumes?
No. I'm a niner. I didn't want them to re-make (and totally change) TOS. I wanted my damn DS9 movie!
I'm with you there but I think the hopes of a DS9 movie died long ago, before the final TNG movie.

As for the new reality I am all for it because we have no idea what will happen. Will Khan be discovered or will David be born? For that matter will Tuvok be born? We have the Star Trek universe we know & now a whole new one to explore. I find that idea
fascinating.
__________________
Long live DS9!
CaptainDonovin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 10:52 PM   #58
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

snakespeare wrote: View Post
I wanted my damn DS9 movie!
Thus causing anguish for readers of the highly popular DS9 post-series novels when the stories and characters fail to match up with the new canonical material.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 10:54 PM   #59
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

[QUOTE=CaptainDonovin;3735866]
snakespeare wrote: View Post
As for the new reality I am all for it because we have no idea what will happen. Will Khan be discovered or will David be born? For that matter will Tuvok be born? We have the Star Trek universe we know & now a whole new one to explore. I find that idea
fascinating.
I admit I found the writing the new book surprisingly liberating. Forget the old continuity. I had a whole new future to play in.

Not that I have anything against the old timeline, of course, but I'd already done that over a dozen times before . . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 8 2010, 11:24 PM   #60
MichaelS
Fleet Captain
 
MichaelS's Avatar
 
Location: Austria
Re: Summer 2010 catalogue details

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
snakespeare wrote: View Post
I wanted my damn DS9 movie!
Thus causing anguish for readers of the highly popular DS9 post-series novels when the stories and characters fail to match up with the new canonical material.
Popular among the readers, granted (at least, based on reactions observed by me on exactly one internet forum, i.e. here). Among the general Trek fans, not so much. Had such a movie ever been considered, I sincerely doubt that the anguish of a handful of people would have been a concern to those involved.
__________________
Exploring the Universe
Out now: Star Trek: A Choice of Catastrophes
MichaelS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
catalog, covers, solicitations, st09, summer 2010 releases

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:57 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.