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Old January 8 2010, 02:54 AM   #31
Marc
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
SmoothieX wrote: View Post
I hope they sink those Sea Shepherd dipshits.
I'd buy tickets to see that.

One of these days, a ship that's being targeted by these terrorists (which is exactly what they are) is gonna start SHOOTING BACK. And that will be entirely justifiable.
You really don't seem to have a clue on things - please do some reading on the matter first.
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Old January 8 2010, 03:04 AM   #32
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

TheMasterOfOrion wrote: View Post
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Umm, no.
Um yes
I could show pictures of the US that included as much concrete.

Japan is one of the most urbanized nations on earth. Outside of the cities there are vast tracts of land that are utilized primarily for agriculture.

Ok, enlighten me Mr Japanophile.
Why did people come up with farming?

Was it so they didn't have to go hunting across rivers and jungles to catch their breakfast?
Was it took keep their stock (food source) protected?
Yes and yes. If you think that the people who invented agriculture had any conception of the fact that an species even COULD be driven to extinction you need to crack an ancient history text.

Yup

Most of Japanese expensive suishi actually comes from the US waters or EU/Iclelandic waters
I don't agree with the hippies or their dumbass philosphy or tactics but facts are Japan has already dumped all over its own yard

Fish stocks in their own back yard have almost collapsed
As have American salmon stocks and the Canadian cod fisheries. Where is your outrage against the fishermen of New England?

I also heard on a reliable news website that Japanese were using ultra-sonics and a laser light to distract a Helicopter pilot
FederalAviationAdministration would go down hard against that.
If true, that would be a bad thing. Let me know if/when they are prosecuted for this alleged violation of international law. Until then it is an allegation, nothing more.

Ok, enlighten me Mr Japanophile.
I'm not a Japanophile, but I am bullshitophobic.
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Old January 8 2010, 03:06 AM   #33
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
SmoothieX wrote: View Post
I hope they sink those Sea Shepherd dipshits.
I'd buy tickets to see that.

One of these days, a ship that's being targeted by these terrorists (which is exactly what they are) is gonna start SHOOTING BACK. And that will be entirely justifiable.
While they certainly have been called terrorists by governments and whalers before, that's really stretching the term, since I doubt anyone is actually terrified of them or motivated to change their practices out of fear of being killed.

They've never actually hurt or killed anyone, though the potential exists when they're playing chicken with other boats at sea. Though the vessels they go up against are almost always considerably larger and more durable than theirs, so the risk of them sinking an opposing vessel at sea or seriously harming the opposing crew is pretty slim. Also, the opposing vessel often rams them, as happened here.

At worst their operations have involved scuttling ships (while they lay unoccupied in port) that were themselves engaged in illegal activities which the international community simply will not enforce. So, vigilantes and vandals I could buy, but terrorists? Not so much.

But then, what do you call the whalers? They're killing these possibly sapient and self-aware creatures against international law. Just because no one seems willing to step up to enforce it doesn't mean they're in the right on this issue either, which your post seems to imply by giving them the right to open fire on the Sea Shepherd boats. So, vigilantism is okay with you in that case? Purposely intending to kill the Sea Shepherd crews, which takes things a step beyond what they've ever done since they don't try to kill anyone, is fine?

Neither side is in the right, both sides are committing illegal activities and ramming/sinking boats (but only one side is killing whales), and yet somehow you've worked it out the the poor whalers should be able to defend themselves by murdering the Sea Shepherd crews? Is this another situation where you've arbitrarily broken things down into a black and white issue because that's all you feel like dealing with, even though it's pretty clearly gray?
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Old January 8 2010, 03:27 AM   #34
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

The whalers may be breaking the law by whaling, but anyone has the right to defend themselves if attacked.
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Old January 8 2010, 03:52 AM   #35
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Driving a small boat up next to a big boat to prevent them from whaling is enough of an "attack" to justify murder to you? Did you watch the video? It was the huge Japanese whaler firing water cannons and ramming the tiny Sea Shepherd boat, not the other way around. The smaller vessel posed no real threat to them, except the threat of not being able to conduct their illegal whaling operations.

Even if the whaling boats that were scuttled (in port, with no crew aboard) were from the same whaling companies, which I doubt, that still does not justify murdering the Sea Shepherd crew. If someone sets your empty car on fire and you see them six months later you can't shoot them for it.
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Old January 8 2010, 03:58 AM   #36
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

^ Excuse me, where did I ever mention murder? I said the whalers are going to start returning fire. I didn't say they should kill anyone. You can sink a boat without killing its crew. Don't these sea shepherds have, well, LIFEBOATS?

They've never actually hurt or killed anyone
Yet.

so the risk of them sinking an opposing vessel at sea or seriously harming the opposing crew is pretty slim.
You don't think they'd try?

Edit: I see they already have. Linky

Specifically:
Two Japanese crewmen were injured, one when he was hit in the face by an empty container of acid and the other when acid was squirted into one of his eyes.
Butyric acid, which Sea Shepherd said was non-toxic, is a corrosive chemical and contact can cause severe irritation and burns of the eyes and skin, leading to permanent damage.
Moronuki said one of the Japanese crewmen was having difficulty opening his eye and the full extent of his injuries had yet to be determined. The other had a cut on his face, but neither appeared to be seriously hurt.
So much for non-violence, eh?

If someone sets your empty car on fire and you see them six months later you can't shoot them for it.
Quite. Because I'd already have shot them six *minutes* later.
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Old January 8 2010, 04:26 AM   #37
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Excuse me, where did I ever mention murder? I said the whalers are going to start returning fire. I didn't say they should kill anyone. You can sink a boat without killing its crew. Don't these sea shepherds have, well, LIFEBOATS?
Return what fire? It's not Trafalgar, for Christ's sake, it's a couple of boats circling each other. The Sea Shepherd crews aren't shooting at them, and the whalers use water cannons. Bringing firearms and actual artillery into the mix on a private whaling vessel is an insane escalation.

Have you seen the boats? They're small, high tech Batmobile-looking speed boats, not large craft with a separate life boats. At best they'd have a raft strapped to the aft hull. Usually there's another Sea Shepherd craft nearby filming the confrontation that can pick them up though if the ship gets sunk, but still, ramming a small vessel with a giant whaler is incredibly dangerous, especially in cold, high seas as you'd find in the Southern Ocean.

They've never actually hurt or killed anyone
Yet.

so the risk of them sinking an opposing vessel at sea or seriously harming the opposing crew is pretty slim.
You don't think they'd try?
If and when they do start trying to kill people, then we can discuss shooting at them. Until then, any talk of opening fire is crazy.

If someone sets your empty car on fire and you see them six months later you can't shoot them for it.
Quite. Because I'd already have shot them six *minutes* later.
Which would still be murder, because killing someone over your empty car being burned when you're not in danger is not self-defense. So yay for you.
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Old January 8 2010, 04:44 AM   #38
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

I really don't see the moral equivalence between the Japanese and the Sea Shepherds here.

One party is flagrantly violating international law to make a buck. The other party is engaged in vigilante activities because no one will enforce said law.

I know whose side I'm gonna take on that one.
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Old January 8 2010, 04:50 AM   #39
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
If and when they do start trying to kill people, then we can discuss shooting at them. Until then, any talk of opening fire is crazy.
Somehow I don't think it'll be crazy for much longer. If somebody did get killed, I doubt Sea Shepherd would care (unless it was one of their guys, of course).

Here's a thought: If the fact that whaling is illegal means that Sea Shepherd is justified in doing whatever they do, does this mean that if I suspect my neighbor is getting free cable TV illegally, I can go and rip the box off the back of his house? If I find out that a coworker is downloading free MP3's illegally, can I smash his iPod right in front of him? If a customer tries to pass me a bad check, can I burn his wallet? You see where this is leading. Just because a particular entity might be doing something illegal, doesn't justify breaking the law against *them*.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The other party is engaged in vigilante activities because no one will enforce said law.
It's not their place to enforce the law. Are they the military? The police? The courts? No? Then screw them.
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Old January 8 2010, 05:00 AM   #40
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Excuse me, where did I ever mention murder? I said the whalers are going to start returning fire. I didn't say they should kill anyone. You can sink a boat without killing its crew. Don't these sea shepherds have, well, LIFEBOATS?
Given that you called them terrorists and given the usual modus operandi of terrorists is to create terror by killing i.e murdering people you did indeed mention murder albiet not directly.
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Old January 8 2010, 05:01 AM   #41
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

^ I suspect that one day Sea Shepherd's actions will result in *them* committing murder, but even I wouldn't advocate killing them. Not unless it's in self defense of course.
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Old January 8 2010, 05:02 AM   #42
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
The other party is engaged in vigilante activities because no one will enforce said law.
It's not their place to enforce the law. Are they the military? The police? The courts? No? Then screw them.
The high seas are a little different than being in someone's terrestrial territory. Different laws apply, and there's considerably more discretion and autonomy for those who ply the oceans. That's why we still have things like piracy.

In my opinion, what the Japanese do is not substantially different from piracy: they take what the law says they cannot, and then engage in violence against those who try to stop them. Fuck 'em. I hope the Sea Shepherds sink every last Japanese whaling ship they find.
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Old January 8 2010, 05:09 AM   #43
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

^ And what if a Sea Shepherd action *does* end up costing a human life? Would you be so quick to defend them then?

I'm not denying that whaling needs to be stopped, but if the Japanese are not allowed to commit violence against whales, then "S.S." cannot be allowed to commit violence against *them*.
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Old January 8 2010, 05:19 AM   #44
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ I suspect that one day Sea Shepherd's actions will result in *them* committing murder, but even I wouldn't advocate killing them. Not unless it's in self defense of course.
then you have no clue as to what entails murder.

Please read a law book.
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Old January 8 2010, 05:27 AM   #45
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Re: Dumbass Japanese and Greenpeace ramming in Australian waters!!

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ And what if a Sea Shepherd action *does* end up costing a human life? Would you be so quick to defend them then?

I'm not denying that whaling needs to be stopped, but if the Japanese are not allowed to commit violence against whales, then "S.S." cannot be allowed to commit violence against *them*.
No, I wouldn't condone taking human lives--on either side. Since the Sea Shepherds are not trying to do that--they are only trying to harass the Japanese out of committing their crimes--I don't have much of a problem with what they do.
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