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Old February 18 2010, 08:14 PM   #91
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

About that bit where Saavik is put through her paces at the (Imperial) Starfleet Academy: I'm just going to hazard a guess that the Academy in the RU is not like that.
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Old February 18 2010, 09:32 PM   #92
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
About that bit where Saavik is put through her paces at the (Imperial) Starfleet Academy: I'm just going to hazard a guess that the Academy in the RU is not like that.
It might actually be closer than you think. Subtract the agonizers and physical assaults, and you have a fairly accurate description of the modern-day U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, whose practices inspired that chapter.
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Old February 18 2010, 09:36 PM   #93
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

i thought it was inspired by the Marine Academy...
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Old February 18 2010, 09:37 PM   #94
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

^ Nope.
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Old February 18 2010, 09:48 PM   #95
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

David Mack wrote:
It might actually be closer than you think. Subtract the agonizers and physical assaults, and you have a fairly accurate description of the modern-day U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, whose practices inspired that chapter.
Pansies.


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Old February 19 2010, 04:27 AM   #96
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

There's an expanded version of The Sorrows of Empire?
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Old February 19 2010, 05:55 AM   #97
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

David Mack wrote: View Post
It might actually be closer than you think. Subtract the agonizers and physical assaults, and you have a fairly accurate description of the modern-day U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, whose practices inspired that chapter.
But Starfleet isn't supposed to be like that. Not the Starfleet from the real universe. Everyone keeps harping on how it's not a military organization, blah blah blah. I thought RU Starfleet was supposed to be all nice and politically correct and all that?

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
i thought it was inspired by the Marine Academy...
There is no 'Marine' Academy that I'm aware of. The Naval Academy serves both the Navy and the Marines.
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Old February 19 2010, 06:04 AM   #98
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
About that bit where Saavik is put through her paces at the (Imperial) Starfleet Academy: I'm just going to hazard a guess that the Academy in the RU is not like that.
I think it's safe to say that the Federation Starfleet Academy doesn't practice institutionalized torture and sexual assault. But I see no reason to think that there wouldn't be drill sergeants and extremely difficult physical training and the like, along the lines of the practices at present-day military academies.

What was it Dayton Ward had posted once?

"What's your name, scumbag?"

"Sir! James T. Kirk, sir!"

"T? What's the T stand for? Thumbdick?"

"Sir! No, sir! Tiberius, sir!"

"Tiberius? Well, holy shit. We've got ourselves a fucking Roman emperor here. You know the Romans were only good for two things: orgies and the second finest military force the fucking civilized world has ever seen. You best learn how to fight, Tiberius, because you don't look like you could get laid in a fucking whorehouse with gold-pressed latinum strung around your pencil neck."

"Sir. Yes, sir!"

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
David Mack wrote: View Post
It might actually be closer than you think. Subtract the agonizers and physical assaults, and you have a fairly accurate description of the modern-day U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, whose practices inspired that chapter.
But Starfleet isn't supposed to be like that. Not the Starfleet from the real universe. Everyone keeps harping on how it's not a military organization, blah blah blah. I thought RU Starfleet was supposed to be all nice and politically correct and all that?
Oh bull. Of course Starfleet is the military. They're the people the government lets fire the guns in war.
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Old February 19 2010, 08:37 AM   #99
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
David Mack wrote: View Post
It might actually be closer than you think. Subtract the agonizers and physical assaults, and you have a fairly accurate description of the modern-day U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, whose practices inspired that chapter.
But Starfleet isn't supposed to be like that. Not the Starfleet from the real universe. Everyone keeps harping on how it's not a military organization, blah blah blah. I thought RU Starfleet was supposed to be all nice and politically correct and all that?

captcalhoun wrote: View Post
i thought it was inspired by the Marine Academy...
There is no 'Marine' Academy that I'm aware of. The Naval Academy serves both the Navy and the Marines.
Quantico may not call itself 'Academy' but it's the same basic thing.
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Old February 19 2010, 01:59 PM   #100
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

^ Actually, it's not the same thing. OCS is a compressed, much more focused, entry-level interval of training than the Naval Academy. Whereas the Academy is essentially the military's version of college, OCS is strictly boot camp for officer candidates. Graduates from the Academy who choose to become Marine officers still go to The Basic School at Quantico, alongside OCS graduates.

Sci wrote:
What was it Dayton Ward had posted once?

"What's your name, scumbag?"

"Sir! James T. Kirk, sir!"

"T? What's the T stand for? Thumbdick?"

"Sir! No, sir! Tiberius, sir!"

"Tiberius? Well, holy shit. We've got ourselves a fucking Roman emperor here. You know the Romans were only good for two things: orgies and the second finest military force the fucking civilized world has ever seen. You best learn how to fight, Tiberius, because you don't look like you could get laid in a fucking whorehouse with gold-pressed latinum strung around your pencil neck."

"Sir. Yes, sir!"
That is a copyrighted bit, sir. PM me for directions to deposit royalties for its use to my PayPal account.

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Old February 19 2010, 02:03 PM   #101
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

Sci wrote: View Post
Of course Starfleet is the military. They're the people the government lets fire the guns in war.
Yes, technically Starfleet is the defensive force of the Federation, but its officers are primarily scientists and diplomats, not warriors. So it stands to reason that they'd be trained in a way that nurtured their individuality and self-respect rather than breaking them down psychologically with institutionalized bullying so they can be molded into obedient grunts. Indeed, not every military today uses such harsh tactics. Just because America does it, that doesn't automatically mean it's the right or the only way to do it.
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Old February 19 2010, 02:04 PM   #102
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

^ No, I'm not taking offense to that. Not at all.
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Old March 13 2010, 08:07 PM   #103
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

Jus finished The Sorrows of Empire today.. yet another solid Mack novel .

I never read the original version (matter of fact, Trek TPBs are virtually non-existant here in Israel, as opposed to the MMPBs, which arrive in bookstores a bit late but fairly regularly..), so I didn't have a basis for comparison.

All in all, a great novel, with just the right amount of tips-of-the-hat and homages. The ending was (as intended, obviously) bittersweet, and had an tragically-epic quality to it.

Now we just have to wait for Rise Like Lions, eh?
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Old March 13 2010, 11:52 PM   #104
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Re: The Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

From earlier in the thread:
JD wrote: View Post
Well, according to David Mack Rise Like Lions is only a possibility, not a 100% certainty. Here's a quote from the thread devoted to that topic.
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^ Well, this is where I mea culpa: I was supposed to take that out at editing and I forgot.

Bottom line: though I have proposed such a project, it has not yet been approved by CBS or Pocket or in any way contracted for. When I wrote the About the Author page on the expanded version of The Sorrows of Empire, neither I nor Margaret had any idea she was soon to be laid off, and she had been keen to acquire Rise Like Lions.

It's my hope I will get to move forward on the project this year, but this is a case in which I, quite simply, spoke too soon. I apologize to my readers, and to my editors and publisher for the confusion.
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Old March 14 2010, 05:54 AM   #105
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Re: THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

I'm holding out hope that we'll get to see RLL. I'm assuming Mr. Mack still wants to write it, and that's all the reassurance I need. And given the optimistic title, I'm guessing that it turns out all right in the end.
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