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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 23 2009, 05:35 PM   #46
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

elton wrote: View Post
I've never met anyone who considered Khan to be Kirk's nemesis as such... he's always instantly associated with number 2, 'cus he was in it, but original Star Trek in general? I disagree with that. I don't think Kirk has an individual nemesis in that fashion as Batman does.

Perhaps I'm hanging out with the wrong people.
You hanging out with fans? Probably so, especially if they even know the difference between "original Star Trek in general" and TWOK.
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Old December 23 2009, 05:51 PM   #47
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

For what it's worth:
Khan was Kirk's nemesis. Just as Nero was Spock Prime's nemesis. A nemesis is simply a person seeking vengeance or retribution, often for a wrong perceived to be done against him. It doesn't require that the nemesis and his target are constantly battling each other like rivals. Rival and nemesis are not the same. For example, Kor could've been written into TOS as Kirk's rival, but unless there was something personal between them (like between Khan and Kirk), he would not be his nemesis.
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Old December 23 2009, 06:09 PM   #48
Devon
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

GalaxyClass1701 wrote: View Post
Devon wrote: View Post
GalaxyClass1701 wrote: View Post
I have read more than one interview where Abrhams has stated that he really would like to use the Khan story!
Which one?
He didn't state which story just that he would like to use Khan.
Which interview I mean.
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Old December 23 2009, 06:33 PM   #49
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Dennis wrote: View Post
There is no Klingon character in the history of Trek that approaches this level of recognition, and announcing that in the next movie Kirk will fight Klingons buys the studio nothing in terms of cutting through media noise. It's like saying that next time out Batman will fight some bank robbers hiding out in an abandoned warehouse.
Considering how popular The Dark Knight was, the next Batman movie could just be Batman kicking a bunch of bank robbers' asses for 2 1/2 hours in an abandoned warehouse and crowds will flock to see it.

But regardless. Captain Kirk vs Khan. It's associated with one movie. It might be the most popular movie, but it's one movie all the same. Captain Kirk vs Klingons. That's an iconic image that is often associated with Star Trek, the same way that Batman vs the Joker is associated with Batman, Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader is associated with Star Wars and so on in that order. In order to re-introduce Trek to the common man it would be best to stick with that basic icon. Hell, Trek XI could potentially have laid the groundwork for this. Aside from the deleted scene, there's the line about most of Starfleet being deployed at the Laurentian system. Maybe this is in preparation for possible conflict with Klingons? Maybe the Federation and Klingons are on the verge of going to war like they were in Errand of Mercy? Not only does this idea re-introduce the Klingons (an important part of Trek lore) for new audiences, but it is also in a way an "organic continuation" of Trek XI that Abrams and his cohorts say they want XII to be in a way that a Khan story couldn't be.

Franklin wrote: View Post
(SS is a solid episode, but it's not like it's in every fan's top five list of most memorable stories).
Indeed, a lot of Space Seed's popularity these days is a result of TWOK.
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Old December 23 2009, 06:45 PM   #50
Franklin
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
But regardless. Captain Kirk vs Khan. It's associated with one movie. It might be the most popular movie, but it's one movie all the same. Captain Kirk vs Klingons. That's an iconic image that is often associated with Star Trek, the same way that Batman vs the Joker is associated with Batman, Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader is associated with Star Wars and so on in that order. In order to re-introduce Trek to the common man it would be best to stick with that basic icon. Hell, Trek XI could potentially have laid the groundwork for this. Aside from the deleted scene, there's the line about most of Starfleet being deployed at the Laurentian system. Maybe this is in preparation for possible conflict with Klingons? Maybe the Federation and Klingons are on the verge of going to war like they were in Errand of Mercy? Not only does this idea re-introduce the Klingons (an important part of Trek lore) for new audiences, but it is also in a way an "organic continuation" of Trek XI that Abrams and his cohorts say they want XII to be in a way that a Khan story couldn't be.
I could see this. Kirk going up against a Klingon captain who is every bit his equal. Introducing the Klingons also introduces a moral foil for the Federation if they want a story that goes in that direction. Playing on the fabric of what's known about Klingons from TUC and TNG (they are not totally evil or without any merit), they could even introduce some moral ambiguity into the story. Kirk's rival could be every bit as right on his side of the conflict as Kirk thinks he is.
One could even call him Kor, Kang, or Koloth is one wants (for old fans's sake), but there are plenty of ways of giving Kirk a worthy foe without rehashing Khan. I'm all for a strong Klingon being Kirk's foe in the next movie.
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Old December 23 2009, 06:45 PM   #51
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

But regardless. Captain Kirk vs Khan. It's associated with one movie. It might be the most popular movie, but it's one movie all the same.
All that matters.

If the studio announces that the next movie will feature Khan, played by _____, there will be a little entertainment news coverage of that for a day or two - how much depends upon who the actor is. If it's announced that the villains will be Klingons - nada, zip, nothing.

Now in fact, if the villain is announced as being played by a well-known and currently hot actor no one will ask very much about whether he's playing Khan, some nameless (to TRW) Klingon, or the Mad Hatter.
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Old December 23 2009, 07:08 PM   #52
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Franklin wrote: View Post

I could see this. Kirk going up against a Klingon captain who is every bit his equal. Introducing the Klingons also introduces a moral foil for the Federation if they want a story that goes in that direction. Playing on the fabric of what's known about Klingons from TUC and TNG (they are not totally evil or without any merit), they could even introduce some moral ambiguity into the story. Kirk's rival could be every bit as right on his side of the conflict as Kirk thinks he is.
One could even call him Kor, Kang, or Koloth is one wants (for old fans's sake), but there are plenty of ways of giving Kirk a worthy foe without rehashing Khan. I'm all for a strong Klingon being Kirk's foe in the next movie.
Excellent idea. This literally is the building blocks for an awesome Trek movie right here.
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Old December 23 2009, 07:54 PM   #53
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

i'll pretty much see any new movie the put out, but they've already had the pissed-off guy out for revenge, so doing Kahn right now would essentially be the same thing. Give it the 3rd or 4th movie to roll out Kahn. Any form of time travel should be out for the same reason.
They need to establish the Klingons in this universe, bringing in the Klingons (officially) for the second movie would be the way that I would want to go. Somehow tie the Klingons in with the Doomsday Machine, and I'd be happy.
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Old December 23 2009, 08:09 PM   #54
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Kirby wrote: View Post
i'll pretty much see any new movie the put out, but they've already had the pissed-off guy out for revenge, so doing Kahn right now would essentially be the same thing.
Khan doesn't have to be a "pissed-off guy looking for revenge" - not right away.
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Old December 23 2009, 08:16 PM   #55
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Exactly, because at this early on who/what would he be looking to seek revenge against? At this point he would be wanting to go back to being a "Prince" or a ruler.
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Old December 23 2009, 08:17 PM   #56
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

GalaxyClass1701 wrote: View Post
I have read more than one interview where Abrhams has stated that he really would like to use the Khan story!

If he messes with Khan I will not see it!
You know, there were plenty of Star Trek fans back in 1980 who, when they read Harve Bennett say: "I think we may go with Space Seed as a basis for the Star Trek II script..." responded with:

"Boy, that's gonna suck hard! He's clueless!"

Yet we all saw how that turned out, didn't we?

I think I'll wait until the next movie is done and I see a few promos as to whether I'll go to the theatre to see it; but based on the last one, I think I'll be in the theatre, tub of popcorn in lap.
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Old December 23 2009, 08:19 PM   #57
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Ving Rhames needs to play a badass version of Captain Terrell at some point.
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Old December 24 2009, 12:25 AM   #58
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Dennis wrote: View Post
elton wrote: View Post
I've never met anyone who considered Khan to be Kirk's nemesis as such... he's always instantly associated with number 2, 'cus he was in it, but original Star Trek in general? I disagree with that. I don't think Kirk has an individual nemesis in that fashion as Batman does.

Perhaps I'm hanging out with the wrong people.
You hanging out with fans? Probably so, especially if they even know the difference between "original Star Trek in general" and TWOK.
Heh, I mentioned "original Star Trek in general" because I didn't want to suggest that Khan is associated with the whole umbrella brand.

Call it Kirk/Spock Trek, if it makes any difference. What the general public see Star Trek as, ie) not Voyager or DS9 or anything.

My point is that Khan isn't as big a deal as you suggest, certainly not to the same degree as the Joker is to Batman.
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Old December 24 2009, 12:25 AM   #59
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

Franklin wrote: View Post
For what it's worth:
Khan was Kirk's nemesis. Just as Nero was Spock Prime's nemesis. A nemesis is simply a person seeking vengeance or retribution, often for a wrong perceived to be done against him. It doesn't require that the nemesis and his target are constantly battling each other like rivals. Rival and nemesis are not the same. For example, Kor could've been written into TOS as Kirk's rival, but unless there was something personal between them (like between Khan and Kirk), he would not be his nemesis.
Does that make Shinzon Picard's nemesis?


::slowly backs out of thread::
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Old December 24 2009, 12:31 AM   #60
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Re: Rumor that will cause me not to see the sequel!

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The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
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