RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,200
Posts: 5,404,370
Members: 24,758
Currently online: 561
Newest member: ashlynnbrooke80

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 23 2009, 07:06 AM   #76
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

The final product is on film. The individual elements, i.e., the model shots in front of the bluescreen, the separate animation cels, have long since been destroyed for the most part (the snipped color footage from "The Cage" very nearly was), so there's really no way to recomposite those effects shots. You can only recreate them from scratch, which means either dragging the 11-footer out of retirement, or cobbling together another model, and doing a lot of expensive blue and green screen work, or going the CGI route.

As for the film that is still around, what isn't in private collections is being kept by Paramount in a salt mine, where it's expected to last around a hundred years.
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23 2009, 08:54 AM   #77
JoeD80
Captain
 
Location: Los Angeles
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
The final product is on film. The individual elements, i.e., the model shots in front of the bluescreen, the separate animation cels, have long since been destroyed for the most part
Don't need any separate elements, since the EFX exist on that final 35mm interpositive film and can (and have) been played with to clean up the image. You can select the resolution from film fairly easily. The initial DVD release (the two episodes per disc one) in fact did this and had everything reprocessed inclusive of EFX, and I assume that since the Blu-Ray has the original broadcast version in HD as an option that re-processing was done on the entire interpositive in a similar fashion. Whether this looks good on anyone's particular HDTV is not something I can determine.
JoeD80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23 2009, 11:38 AM   #78
ST-One
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Germany - with UHC since the early 1900s
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
The final product is on film. The individual elements, i.e., the model shots in front of the bluescreen, the separate animation cels, have long since been destroyed for the most part
Don't need any separate elements, since the EFX exist on that final 35mm interpositive film and can (and have) been played with to clean up the image. You can select the resolution from film fairly easily. The initial DVD release (the two episodes per disc one) in fact did this and had everything reprocessed inclusive of EFX, and I assume that since the Blu-Ray has the original broadcast version in HD as an option that re-processing was done on the entire interpositive in a similar fashion. Whether this looks good on anyone's particular HDTV is not something I can determine.
Have you actually looked at some of TOS's VFX-shots?
They are, in part, poorly composited together - they got away with it because of the lower resolution of the then TV-sets.
But this isn't the case today anymore. The original VFX-shot just don't hold up against the live-action footage anymore at these higher resolutions.
ST-One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 23 2009, 07:30 PM   #79
JoeD80
Captain
 
Location: Los Angeles
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

Just because they suck in some people's opinions doesn't have to do with them not being able to process it. The implication in the first message that I replied to seemed to be that the EFX existed only at low resolution and so would look progressively worse as television got better, but the EFX were reprocessed from the interpositive film for HD resolution, same as the live action footage. Wasn't making comment on whether they looked good or not.
JoeD80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 02:11 AM   #80
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

Well, perhaps if I can get my grubby hands on a TOS Blu-Ray disc, I can hijack an HD set at Sam's Club and see how the original effects shots look in HD.

Or, perhaps someone can chime in here..?
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 03:48 AM   #81
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
Well, perhaps if I can get my grubby hands on a TOS Blu-Ray disc, I can hijack an HD set at Sam's Club and see how the original effects shots look in HD.

Or, perhaps someone can chime in here..?
Pretty crappy, actually. And I'm a pretty big Star Trek purist.

Actually, it sort of depends on the shot. There are some scenes I find that look okay, but most of the Ent stock shots are overly grainy and make for a jarring viewing experience when seen side by side against the crystal clear principle photography. There is one original FX shot off the top of my head that I think looks much better than the new FX shot (from "Galileo Seven," when the shuttle launches; the old effect, sans wobbly starfield, looks much better to me than the new shot, which could be a scene from a Star Trek video game). Most of the matte shots hold up pretty well.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 05:40 AM   #82
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
 
Location: ANS Yamato, Sector 5, Sol System
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
A TOS Miranda is in the (unfortunately utterly terrible) fan film "Blood and Fire". The story and acting are, sadly, horrific but the CG is great:


(pic borrowed from Trekmovie.com)
And yet people at the discussion forums for Phase II want to bash the new movie to bits (don't get me wrong, I like the show and want to see what they come up with next, but...)
Dusty Ayres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 06:30 AM   #83
MANT!
Rear Admiral
 
MANT!'s Avatar
 
Location: Mare Island Naval Shipyard
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

^ I also concur with the above..on HDTV s most of the old effects just scream out to be noticed..grain..artifacts on the composite show up...it's too jarring compared with the new effects at high resolution settings..

But as I have often pointed out..

A true purist "Who wants to see it in it's original resolution" needs to use an old electron tube TV and an old VCR to get the true Olde Tyme Star Trek viewing experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWqgQ...eature=related
__________________
Ryan Ladson Geddings 03-06-1989 to 11-27-2013
Requiescat in pace
MANT! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 02:14 PM   #84
trevanian
Rear Admiral
 
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

Milo Bloom wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
And, for that matter, the new FX were not the point of remastering the series. The series was remastered to preserve the film.

I thought I just addressed this in another thread, but the film didn't need preserving. Properly stored, film is THE medium for long-term preservation. Digital storage needs to be shunted round to avoid signal decay, and actually costs more given the amount of hands-on to keep that decay from occurring. The outlay for proper storage on film is initially high, but is now practically a fire-and-forget, because unless you have a major trauma, the film is going to remain viable and not decay. (They no longer store stocks that turn from blue to pink in good conditions, like was the case in the JAWS era.)
Not disagreeing with what you say (mostly because you seem more on top of the technical stuff regarding film than I am), but sometimes the films do need to be re-transferred to keep them on good, current stock, but they also need refreshing from time to time to make new syndication master tapes. Not even considering overuse of physical tape copies, there's also leaps in transfer technology, and like it or not there are many people that will change the channel if a show is in black and white, or even if in color, is faded and overly grainy. That was likely a major reason for this project, and they happened to include the new FX as a way to help sell them into syndication. Let's face it, many of the FX were groundbreaking for their time, and were the product of hours and hours of blood, sweat and tears, but many of them were also victims of insufficient time and resources, and they can hurt the overall feel of the story. The quality of the writing can help people look past the day glo bridge sets and primary color uniform shirts, but when they cut to an exterior shot to show the enemy spaceship, and it looks like a kitbashed ERTL model, it just takes too many people out of the story.
Transferring to a 'current' stock would be unwise, since the stocks now have far greater latitude and would really mess up the look of TOS. The 'more advanced' stocks of the 1970s are the ones that decayed so fast that the water in JAWS turned pink before corrections were undertaken.

New tech, as usual, is not always better tech, but it is most often faster/easier tech.

The quality of the writing and performances and cutting and such is the main factor, I agree; but to me, the low-end production values of the live-action TOS shoots are a lot more disagreeable to the eye than most of the VFX shots (about half of which are totally watchable for me) ... on the other hand, the often cartoonish -R vfx have kept me from watching a full new ep in this incarnation, because it is like watching a movie rough cut with animatics in place of finals.
trevanian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 04:08 PM   #85
Doug Otte
Fleet Captain
 
Doug Otte's Avatar
 
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

trevanian wrote: View Post
The quality of the writing and performances and cutting and such is the main factor, I agree; but to me, the low-end production values of the live-action TOS shoots are a lot more disagreeable to the eye than most of the VFX shots (about half of which are totally watchable for me) ... on the other hand, the often cartoonish -R vfx have kept me from watching a full new ep in this incarnation, because it is like watching a movie rough cut with animatics in place of finals.
I agree w/ what you've written about the VFX shots. However (and I seem to be in the minority based upon others' posting) I still don't see many glaring issues w/ the live-action shots.

The other day, I saw the first really obvious flaw. In Mirror, Mirror, when Scott and McCoy climb the ladder to the little upper-level engineering room, I could see the seam where two wall pieces were put together.

Otherwise (and I am looking for them), I don't see any issues.

Doug
Doug Otte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 04:59 PM   #86
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

goldbug wrote: View Post
^ I also concur with the above..on HDTV s most of the old effects just scream out to be noticed..grain..artifacts on the composite show up...it's too jarring compared with the new effects at high resolution settings..

But as I have often pointed out..

A true purist "Who wants to see it in it's original resolution" needs to use an old electron tube TV and an old VCR to get the true Olde Tyme Star Trek viewing experience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWqgQ...eature=related
Note at least one of the links to the side are for clips with color tv's from the late 50's to early 60's. Those are the sets that Star Trek was made for, as well as the large number of black and white sets still in use. After all, not everyone had a brand new RCA Victor or Zenith (although Star Trek sold a lot of 'em); a lot of folks continued to get by with the old Dumont.
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 05:00 PM   #87
Wynterhawk
Commodore
 
Wynterhawk's Avatar
 
Location: Wynterhawk is cool like the other side of your pillow
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

I've seen both versions, but I still like the original offering, visible "motion boxes" and non-digital displays and all
__________________
So many people live within unhappy circumstances and yet will not take the initiative to change their situation because they are conditioned to a life of security, conformity and conservatism.
Wynterhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24 2009, 07:11 PM   #88
A beaker full of death
Vice Admiral
 
A beaker full of death's Avatar
 
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

Wynterhawk wrote: View Post
I've seen both versions, but I still like the original offering, visible "motion boxes" and non-digital displays and all
Agreed.
A beaker full of death is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25 2009, 06:44 AM   #89
Captain Robert April
Vice Admiral
 
Location: In selfless service to fandom, on the road to becoming a Star Trek trivia god...
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

I'd like it if they could do a remastering that would keep the original effects, but clean up the stuff you shouldn't see, like the garbage mattes. Never saw 'em back in the day, so it was rather alarming when they suddenly became visible in later years.

And WHERE IS THAT AVATAR FROM!?!
Captain Robert April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 25 2009, 08:03 AM   #90
A beaker full of death
Vice Admiral
 
A beaker full of death's Avatar
 
Re: TOS-Remastered: a waste of time

^ I could tell you... but then I'd have to... share.
A beaker full of death is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
remastered, tos-r

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.