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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 30 2009, 03:36 PM   #61
flightmech73
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

6079SmithW wrote: View Post
Sulu and Chekov: Already are graduates from a previous class.
Just an observation. If Checov indeed graduated the class previous, just for round number sake well say a year before the others. He stated he was 17 in the movie. So that's 16 when he graduated. So did he get into the academy at 12? Should we call him Doogie Checov?
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Old November 30 2009, 03:39 PM   #62
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Saavik did wear a shirt color coded for cadets.
But since she wasn't a cadet, the color obviously isn't coded just for cadets.

In TOS, he had the rank of Ensign *before* graduation.
All attempts at explanation that make this claim are to be avoided, because one doesn't get rank before one graduates. That's the whole point of graduation.

OTOH, people don't necessarily leave the Academy when they graduate. And we know for a fact that Kirk didn't, because he was said to have been an instructor, supposedly long after his four years of undergraduate study had ended (or else he couldn't have instructed his much-junior Mitchell). There's nothing particularly odd, then, about Kirk getting a promotion or even two after graduation but before going to his first post-Academy assignment on the Farragut.

I like the idea but I'd tweak it so that everbody graduauates as an Ensign and the extra courses allow you to graduate as a Lt. After all, if you didn't graduate as an Ensign at least you wouldn't have a rank at all, and these are officers in training not enlisted personnel.
That wouldn't explain how Saavik is taking the course while already holding Lieutenant (jg) rank.

I figure Kirk in both universes did advanced courses and got some time in space as an ensign before graduating as a Lt.
In the prime universe, Kirk was said to have done his no-win scenario (which was never said to be Kobayashi Maru specifically) while still a cadet. We don't know if he needed any advanced courses after that, since they could be expected to culminate in taking that test.

In the STXI universe, we never saw Cadet Kirk graduate to any rank, until his return to the Earth he had saved. And there he was told he'd get command of the Enterprise, and the next time we saw him, he was wearing Captain braid. Difficult to tell how much time passed, or how many extra courses Kirk took, or anything of that sort.

It isn't speculation with Bashir, it was said onscreen that he had the choice given to him upon graduation in 2368 for whatever assignment he wanted and the first/earliest known one that he took on, was Deep Space 9, at the rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade at which he apparently had upon graduation.
Umm, that sentence still contains a lot of speculation. His graduation date is unknown, never established in canon. We don't know if Starfleet granted him his wish of getting to DS9 right away. And we have no idea what rank he held at graduation.

For what it's worth, a classmate of his, was also given CMO status after graduating on a Starship, with the same rank.
Incorrect. Elizabeth Lense got a position in the medical staff of the Lexington, but there was no suggestion that she would have been the CMO of the ship. And we don't know when she attained her rank of Lt(jg), because we only saw her many, many years after her supposed graduation.

I cannot be to sure exactly, but I think in the prime timeline, it's come up in some form or another that Spock is a year older then Kirk. I think that was the intention in the movie, but I am not exactly sure.
Our only good source to the birthdate of the Prime Spock is the TAS episode "Yesteryear", whose framing story supposedly takes place exactly 37 years after his birth. But we don't know the exact date of that framing story, so we can't know Spock's birthday exactly, either. That he'd be roughly the same age as Kirk is perfectly acceptable, but there may also be a large age difference if we take those 37 years as Vulcan years (which in the context of the TAS episode is actually rather likely) and if those are different from Earth years somehow.

As for Uhura's rank of Lieutenant, aren't we supposed to believe that she had been a cadet for quite some time already before meeting Kirk in that Iowan bar? Perhaps she graduated long before Kirk's Kobayashi Maru] test, and thus got a promotion before Kirk even got a commission?

OTOH, it could be that Uhura is a brainy specialist in the STXI universe, and not the simple switchboard operator she was in TOS, and that Starfleet rewards her academic skills with a high starting rank just like it may reward medical specialists.

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Old November 30 2009, 11:02 PM   #63
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
Saavik did wear a shirt color coded for cadets.
But since she wasn't a cadet, the color obviously isn't coded just for cadets.
Or she is and "cadet" in Starfleet includes officers undergoing advanced command training.
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Old December 1 2009, 12:10 AM   #64
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Yet nobody ever calls Saavik "cadet", whereas undergraduates in many Star Trek contexts are called "cadet". Why complicate things?

Red is something worn on the collar and shoulder strap by people being trained for Starfleet jobs - and perhaps also by people doing the training. That includes cadets and enlisted trainees as per Fletcher's original intent, but also includes people like Saavik (who had red collar and shoulder strap) and Valeris (who had red collar but grey shoulder strap) who are definitely commissioned officers.

Fletcher had ideas about the student/instructor coding. According to him, students would wear stripes of color on their red straps to indicate the field they are studying in, but I don't think we ever saw that. He also wanted instructors to wear white straps, with red stripes that have colored narrow center stripes to indicate the field they are teaching, but that never happened, either. Instead, we saw Admirals who wore red stripes in the middle of their white straps - so this is probably what an instructor "really" looks like. Although that'd mean that neither Kirk nor Spock were instructors in ST2, or then they were dressing up all wrong...

The curious color combo of Valeris might simply indicate that she's an instructor in the grey field of work, or otherwise employed by the Academy, despite being a graduate. The all-red Saavik would be a full grad student. Still a relatively simple and intuitive system, and one that agrees with onscreen facts.

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Old December 1 2009, 12:20 AM   #65
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

I think Valeris' uniform was a mistake.
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Old December 1 2009, 12:34 AM   #66
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
In the STXI universe, we never saw Cadet Kirk graduate to any rank
Well, there is that bit where they're trying to beam Kirk and Sulu aboard, and Kirk's rank (on the transporter display screen) is listed as Lieutenant. This makes it very likely that he would have graduated with that rank, had the Kobayashi Maru scenario not 'interfered'.

It is of course possible that Pike gave Kirk a field commission. But I don't think so, since Pike wouldn't have given a rank to anyone who wasn't supposed to be on board in the first place. Would he?
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Old December 1 2009, 12:43 AM   #67
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

If Uhura can go from the academy to the Enterprise as Lt, then Kirk can too.
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Old December 1 2009, 01:09 AM   #68
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
Yet nobody ever calls Saavik "cadet", whereas undergraduates in many Star Trek contexts are called "cadet". Why complicate things?
Decided to watch Wrath of Khan.

Kirk used the term "cadet" in reference to group who just destroyed the simulator.

James T Kirk wrote:
I assume you are loitering here to learn what efficiency rating I plan to give your cadets.
Spock wrote:
I am understandably curious.
James T Kirk wrote:
They destroyed the simulator room and you with it.
"They" is pretty much Saavik.
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