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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 26 2009, 01:48 PM   #31
Jeri
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Spock was still around for Kirk's commendation and promotion ceremony, so I don't think it was several years later -- when Spock would have already been off working on the planet suitable for Vulcan colonization that he found. Spock has the final dialog in the movie from the gallery above the assembly.
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Old November 26 2009, 03:57 PM   #32
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
It is defnitely possible to graduate with a rank higher than ensign, particularly in medical and science divisions. I think Bashir was meant to be straight out of the Acadamy and he was a Lt(jg).
The egalitarian UFP society might frown on its Starfleet doing that, though. Those with academic training get higher graduation ranks today because that gives them higher pay for their greater skills. But Starfleet doesn't pay its workers, not in the conventional sense. And everybody might be an academician in Starfleet. I don't hear of Starfleet engineers graduating as Lieutenants, even though they probably all hold doctorates...

(FWIW, there's a fun bit in an unused version of the ST:TMP script, a very preliminary one, where it was suggested that all Vulcans graduate as junior Lieutenants, just like MDs.)

That said, I have no real trouble believing Bashir might have graduated as Lt(jg), although he's supposedly older than 22 when we first see him. But McCoy apparently graduated at two ranks higher. Does this mean that he had special skills on top of being a full MD? In TOS, he's a specialist in space psychology - does this count in the alternate timeline?


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According to Memory Alpha Bashir would've been 27 at the start of the DS9 and I've seen it mentioned on other Trek sites that Medical officers spend another 3 years (I think) at Medical Academy.
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Old November 26 2009, 04:01 PM   #33
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
(FWIW, there's a fun bit in an unused version of the ST:TMP script, a very preliminary one, where it was suggested that all Vulcans graduate as junior Lieutenants, just like MDs.)

That said, I have no real trouble believing Bashir might have graduated as Lt(jg), although he's supposedly older than 22 when we first see him. But McCoy apparently graduated at two ranks higher. Does this mean that he had special skills on top of being a full MD? In TOS, he's a specialist in space psychology - does this count in the alternate timeline?

OTOH, I have no trouble accepting Spock's high rank, either. Starfleet seems to award precious few citations, but in turn is quite willing to dish out promotions as rewards for heroics. Spock might have been quite the heroic type in his alternate youth, despite his uptight instructor appearance.

Really, the only thing that jars here is Kirk's rapid promotion at the end of the movie. And in theory, we may say he got promoted more gradually than it seems - that he was already a Lieutenant Commander when he received the captaincy, and that several years had passed after the other events of the movie. Although that's certain to be contradicted in the next movie, if we get one.

Timo Saloniemi
I think Bashir was 27 (ish) but then a medical qualification to be a CMO would tke 7 years instead of 4 so we can assume that he spent 7 years training and as a junior doctor and then maybe a couple of years on post-grad study.

McCoy is a bit of an oddity. He was an experienced doctor but not an experienced astronaut so it isn't clear why that justifies being such a high rank after such a short naval career. Probably he came in as a Lt and demonstrated very good command and admin skills that warranted a fast-track to a CMO position.

I only make the distinction with Spock because he is essentially the same character but two ranks senior. It also stretches credibility that he helped save the Earth and yet wasn't promoted to his own command like Kirk, let alone Kirk being promoted above him (although he is a Vulcan and has no ego to bruise). If nothing else, then he could have been promoted as a token the the masses of Vulcan dead. There was no real need for him to be a full commander throughout the movie and I just found it strange that they chose to make him that rank. Number One, Pike's original first officer was only a lieutenant as well I think.
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Old November 26 2009, 04:18 PM   #34
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Number One, Pike's original first officer was only a lieutenant as well I think.
I don't remember a rank for Number One ever being established. Not in dialogue, anyway. And the sleeve stripes weren't really reliable in The Cage.
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Old November 26 2009, 08:39 PM   #35
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Number One, Pike's original first officer was only a lieutenant as well I think.
I don't remember a rank for Number One ever being established. Not in dialogue, anyway. And the sleeve stripes weren't really reliable in The Cage.
It was in dialogue, just after Pike turns around and bumps into Yeoman Colt.
PIKE: I thought I told you that when I'm on the bridge--
COLT: But you wanted the reports by oh five hundred. It's oh five hundred now, sir.
PIKE: Oh, I see. Thank you.
ONE: She's replacing your former yeoman, sir.
PIKE: She does a good job, all right. It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. [Look from Number One] No offence, Lieutenant. You're different, of course. [Another reaction shot from One]
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/1.htm
The bracketed bits are my additions, from checking the text against the episode (not that I've ever found much in the way of errors in Chakoteya's transcriptions.)
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Old November 26 2009, 09:24 PM   #36
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, for what it's worth, Kirk-Prime's first assignment after the academy was as a lieutenant on the Farragut. Prior to that, he served as an ensign on the Republic with one of his instructors (Ben Finney)- this was apparently before his graduation.
Ensign is after graduation by default.

But Ensign need not mean Kirk would have left the Academy. After all, it's also known that he stayed there as instructor until Lieutenant (jg?) rank. So logically, Farragut would follow only after Kirk ceased to be instructor and went to space for real.

Kirk would probably have served on dozens of starships before the Farragut - it sounds like a routine thing for a cadet to do, during his or her training. The service under Captain Garrovick would simply be the first time he was practicing his profession as a commissioned officer after leaving the Academy.

As for the STXI ranks, hey, everybody is wearing a uniform. And a familiar one, too - virtually identical to the ones we saw in TOS. So it's a no-brainer that Sulu is a commissioned Lieutenant, as his uniform clearly says so. McCoy wears Lieutenant Commander braid. Spock wears full Commander.

These ranks are the same these people held when we first saw them together in "Corbomite Maneuver" (or "Man Trap" if we think airdate order). That was in the mid-2260s, so they seem to be suffering from some career stagnation. Or alternately, they all had much faster career progression in the STXI universe, and in that universe will all be Captains or Admirals by the end of the 2260s.

Pike is Captain, except in the final scene, where he curiously wears what looks like flag braid for full Admiral. That is, two thin lines, one thick, then one more thin. Hoever, the thick one is not as thick as in TOS flag ranks, so perhaps this is what a Fleet Captain wears?

Scotty is Lieutenant Commander. Uhura seems to have forgotten her sleeves in her cabin, so we can't tell her rank. And Chekov wears no rank braid. Both are potential Ensigns, while Uhura could theoretically hold some other rank as well. And by "in theory" I mean "in practice", because dialogue no doubt solves this problem for us, and I don't think she was ever called Ensign there... Anybody remember any relevant bits?

Kirk never wears any sort of rank braid until he gets the Captain braid for the final scene. Which, considering the fact that the others appear stagnated, could take place half a decade after the other bits in the movie.

Timo Saloniemi
Sulu, Chekov and Uhura are all addresed by their ranks in ST09, so we know what they are.

Going by a couple of other fictional medical officers, McCoy's rank doesn't seem that unusual. in MASH Burns is a Major and Hawkeye is a Captain. In Starfleet they would be a Lt. Commander and a Lieutenent respectively. Neither is "regular Army" but given rank based on being Doctors.
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Old November 26 2009, 11:18 PM   #37
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

To me, I just chalk it up that Starfleet doesn't do everything exactly the same way today's navies do. Saves me a lot of headaches...
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Old November 26 2009, 11:32 PM   #38
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Maybe it helps to give a doctor a little weight (having higher than normal sounding ranks) when they feel the need to start using medical regulations to get higher ranked officers to comply? So a captain being medically relieved by a doctor isn't brought down by the ship's chief medical officer hoding the lowly rank of ensign or lieutenant.
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Old November 26 2009, 11:59 PM   #39
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
To me, I just chalk it up that Starfleet doesn't do everything exactly the same way today's navies do. Saves me a lot of headaches...
Sounds like a plan.
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Old November 27 2009, 03:50 AM   #40
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Number One, Pike's original first officer was only a lieutenant as well I think.
I don't remember a rank for Number One ever being established. Not in dialogue, anyway. And the sleeve stripes weren't really reliable in The Cage.
It was in dialogue, just after Pike turns around and bumps into Yeoman Colt.
PIKE: I thought I told you that when I'm on the bridge--
COLT: But you wanted the reports by oh five hundred. It's oh five hundred now, sir.
PIKE: Oh, I see. Thank you.
ONE: She's replacing your former yeoman, sir.
PIKE: She does a good job, all right. It's just that I can't get used to having a woman on the bridge. [Look from Number One] No offence, Lieutenant. You're different, of course. [Another reaction shot from One]
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/1.htm
The bracketed bits are my additions, from checking the text against the episode (not that I've ever found much in the way of errors in Chakoteya's transcriptions.)
That shut my mouth. Damn, this is embarassing.
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Old November 27 2009, 04:19 AM   #41
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
Uhura seems to have forgotten her sleeves in her cabin, so we can't tell her rank.
That just made my night! I don't even know why that's so funny to me...
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Old November 27 2009, 05:14 AM   #42
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

SilentP wrote: View Post
Maybe it helps to give a doctor a little weight (having higher than normal sounding ranks) when they feel the need to start using medical regulations to get higher ranked officers to comply? So a captain being medically relieved by a doctor isn't brought down by the ship's chief medical officer hoding the lowly rank of ensign or lieutenant.
It probably depends on how experienced the doctor in question is, whether they are commissioned at a lower or higher rank in Starfleet.

Bashir, for example, was a fresh faced newbie, straight out of medschool, so he was commissioned as a Lieutenant JG.

McCoy, on the other hand, is obviously not that new at the medical profession. He's probably been a doctor for years before he joined Starfleet. So it makes sense that he'd receive a higher rank, like LCDR.
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Old November 27 2009, 07:33 AM   #43
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Bashir, for example, was a fresh faced newbie, straight out of medschool, so he was commissioned as a Lieutenant JG.
That's just speculation, though. It was never established that Bashir went to anything like "med school"; for all we know, Starfleet trained him through and through. It also wasn't established that he got to DS9 "straight out of" anything. All we learned was that he requested DS9 as his first assignment - but we never learn if his request was granted, or whether he did stuff elsewhere before his "first assignment".

The same unfortunately holds for McCoy, STXI notwithstanding: we have no idea how he received his medical training - no location, no timetable, no causal timeline that would tell whether Starfleet and medical training came in that order, reverse order, or simultaneously, or were the very same thing.

In the STXI universe, McCoy is an MD first, then becomes a Starfleet cadet and then goes straight to being LtCmdr in three years. But none of that need hold true for McCoy in the prime universe. These things might negate each other, so that McCoy ain't a veteran MD yet when going to Starfleet, thus graduates at a lower rank, but catches up and is LtCmdr in TOS anyway.

Agreed, though, that McCoy's medical experience at his day of Starfleet Academy graduation may have been greater than Bashir's, and that this may affect his initial rank.

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Old November 27 2009, 10:40 AM   #44
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Just to throw this in here: Gary Mitchell makes a comment about Lt. Kirk lecturing at the academy. After serving as a Lt. for several years and being up for promotion to Lt. Cmdr. these officers go back to the academy for their command training. This is like grad school. They pick their specialty and upon completion of their command training they get promoted to Lt. Cmdr. While there they also help instruct like TAs do. This is also the time when you take the Kobayashi Maru. So we can pretend that the academy scenes were for Kirk's command/graduate training and that he had already graduated and served as an officer for several years. This would make better sense, although it is pretty clear from the movie that the time period is Kirk's 3rd undergrad year and he has not graduated yet.
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Old November 27 2009, 02:28 PM   #45
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

After serving as a Lt. for several years and being up for promotion to Lt. Cmdr. these officers go back to the academy for their command training. This is like grad school. They pick their specialty and upon completion of their command training they get promoted to Lt. Cmdr.
This is what I suppose was the case with Saavik in ST2. She clearly wasn't a cadet any more, as she carried the rank pins of a graduated, commissioned officer. Yet she trained in what we were told was a test for cadets - a test that Cadet Kirk had taken and passed.

So I'd postulate that one can take a "command course" during one's basic studies, and graduate at the rank of Ensign (which we know Kirk held after graduation in the prime universe, and Picard did in "Tapestry", and so forth) but with lots of brownie points for immediate advancement in the command path. Or then one can tackle some other sort of a field of study in basic training, and graduate without the brownie points - so one has to go back for the "command course" postgrad, like Saavik did, and earn the points there. Only by taking this course at some point of one's career can one advance to command positions eventually.

So we can pretend that the academy scenes were for Kirk's command/graduate training and that he had already graduated and served as an officer for several years.
Yet it's not just this movie that claims that Kirk did his command training as undergraduate. ST2 says the same thing: it was Cadet Kirk who beat the no-win scenario even in the prime universe. So I'd stick to the "two alternate paths" idea.

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