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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 26 2009, 12:49 AM   #16
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

John Picard wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Spock is probably a commissioned officer with some teaching duties, hence the grey uniform (instructor) while in the Academy.

Not perfect, but I like it,
Remove the word "probably" from your statement. He designed and teaches the Kobyashi Maru plus he was Pike's first officer. He is much older than Kirk and as such had been a Starfleet officer for quite some time.
AFAIK, Spock and Kirk are about the same age.
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Old November 26 2009, 12:58 AM   #17
Nerys Myk
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
John Picard wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Spock is probably a commissioned officer with some teaching duties, hence the grey uniform (instructor) while in the Academy.

Not perfect, but I like it,
Remove the word "probably" from your statement. He designed and teaches the Kobyashi Maru plus he was Pike's first officer. He is much older than Kirk and as such had been a Starfleet officer for quite some time.
AFAIK, Spock and Kirk are about the same age.
true, we have to remember Kirk is older than the average human cadet, having entered the academy at 22.
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Old November 26 2009, 02:17 AM   #18
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

John Picard wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Spock is probably a commissioned officer with some teaching duties, hence the grey uniform (instructor) while in the Academy.

Not perfect, but I like it,
Remove the word "probably" from your statement. He designed and teaches the Kobyashi Maru plus he was Pike's first officer. He is much older than Kirk and as such had been a Starfleet officer for quite some time.
Yeah, I put probably just to be extra-cautious.
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Old November 26 2009, 02:37 AM   #19
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Spock was referred to as "Commander Spock" during Kirk's board of inquiry. So he was clearly already a commsioned officer and had worked his way up the ranks.

As for everyone else, yeah I would guess by the end of the movie they were all officers with ranks equal to what they held when TOS began. After all, if Kirk was made a Captain, there's no reason why Uhura can't be a Lt. or Chekov an Ensign.
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Old November 26 2009, 03:00 AM   #20
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Spock was referred to as "Commander Spock" during Kirk's board of inquiry. So he was clearly already a commsioned officer and had worked his way up the ranks.

As for everyone else, yeah I would guess by the end of the movie they were all officers with ranks equal to what they held when TOS began. After all, if Kirk was made a Captain, there's no reason why Uhura can't be a Lt. or Chekov an Ensign.
God, I just realized that they'll be stuck in the same chairs for even longer this time around.
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Old November 26 2009, 03:00 AM   #21
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

They had those ranks when serving under Pike.
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Old November 26 2009, 03:02 AM   #22
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Also, for what it's worth, Kirk-Prime's first assignment after the academy was as a lieutenant on the Farragut. Prior to that, he served as an ensign on the Republic with one of his instructors (Ben Finney)- this was apparently before his graduation.
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Old November 26 2009, 08:36 AM   #23
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

According to the script, Sulu is 25 and has a PhD in astrophysics. So he´s probably already graduated.
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Old November 26 2009, 08:54 AM   #24
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Also, for what it's worth, Kirk-Prime's first assignment after the academy was as a lieutenant on the Farragut. Prior to that, he served as an ensign on the Republic with one of his instructors (Ben Finney)- this was apparently before his graduation.
Ensign is after graduation by default.

But Ensign need not mean Kirk would have left the Academy. After all, it's also known that he stayed there as instructor until Lieutenant (jg?) rank. So logically, Farragut would follow only after Kirk ceased to be instructor and went to space for real.

Kirk would probably have served on dozens of starships before the Farragut - it sounds like a routine thing for a cadet to do, during his or her training. The service under Captain Garrovick would simply be the first time he was practicing his profession as a commissioned officer after leaving the Academy.

As for the STXI ranks, hey, everybody is wearing a uniform. And a familiar one, too - virtually identical to the ones we saw in TOS. So it's a no-brainer that Sulu is a commissioned Lieutenant, as his uniform clearly says so. McCoy wears Lieutenant Commander braid. Spock wears full Commander.

These ranks are the same these people held when we first saw them together in "Corbomite Maneuver" (or "Man Trap" if we think airdate order). That was in the mid-2260s, so they seem to be suffering from some career stagnation. Or alternately, they all had much faster career progression in the STXI universe, and in that universe will all be Captains or Admirals by the end of the 2260s.

Pike is Captain, except in the final scene, where he curiously wears what looks like flag braid for full Admiral. That is, two thin lines, one thick, then one more thin. Hoever, the thick one is not as thick as in TOS flag ranks, so perhaps this is what a Fleet Captain wears?

Scotty is Lieutenant Commander. Uhura seems to have forgotten her sleeves in her cabin, so we can't tell her rank. And Chekov wears no rank braid. Both are potential Ensigns, while Uhura could theoretically hold some other rank as well. And by "in theory" I mean "in practice", because dialogue no doubt solves this problem for us, and I don't think she was ever called Ensign there... Anybody remember any relevant bits?

Kirk never wears any sort of rank braid until he gets the Captain braid for the final scene. Which, considering the fact that the others appear stagnated, could take place half a decade after the other bits in the movie.

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Old November 26 2009, 08:59 AM   #25
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Well, one man's stagnation is another man's bliss. They are on the Enterprise, you know.
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Old November 26 2009, 09:02 AM   #26
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

From what it seemed when Pike was asking Sulu where 'Helmsman MacKenna' was, it seemed that Sulu was already assigned as a backup/beta shift helmsman and had to go up as replacement helmsman, since the 'proper' helmsman was ill (and probably not aboard and before the alert went out) so it seems likely he already had his rank for a while.
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Old November 26 2009, 10:42 AM   #27
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, for what it's worth, Kirk-Prime's first assignment after the academy was as a lieutenant on the Farragut. Prior to that, he served as an ensign on the Republic with one of his instructors (Ben Finney)- this was apparently before his graduation.
Ensign is after graduation by default.

But Ensign need not mean Kirk would have left the Academy. After all, it's also known that he stayed there as instructor until Lieutenant (jg?) rank. So logically, Farragut would follow only after Kirk ceased to be instructor and went to space for real.

Kirk would probably have served on dozens of starships before the Farragut - it sounds like a routine thing for a cadet to do, during his or her training. The service under Captain Garrovick would simply be the first time he was practicing his profession as a commissioned officer after leaving the Academy.

As for the STXI ranks, hey, everybody is wearing a uniform. And a familiar one, too - virtually identical to the ones we saw in TOS. So it's a no-brainer that Sulu is a commissioned Lieutenant, as his uniform clearly says so. McCoy wears Lieutenant Commander braid. Spock wears full Commander.

These ranks are the same these people held when we first saw them together in "Corbomite Maneuver" (or "Man Trap" if we think airdate order). That was in the mid-2260s, so they seem to be suffering from some career stagnation. Or alternately, they all had much faster career progression in the STXI universe, and in that universe will all be Captains or Admirals by the end of the 2260s.

Pike is Captain, except in the final scene, where he curiously wears what looks like flag braid for full Admiral. That is, two thin lines, one thick, then one more thin. Hoever, the thick one is not as thick as in TOS flag ranks, so perhaps this is what a Fleet Captain wears?

Scotty is Lieutenant Commander. Uhura seems to have forgotten her sleeves in her cabin, so we can't tell her rank. And Chekov wears no rank braid. Both are potential Ensigns, while Uhura could theoretically hold some other rank as well. And by "in theory" I mean "in practice", because dialogue no doubt solves this problem for us, and I don't think she was ever called Ensign there... Anybody remember any relevant bits?

Kirk never wears any sort of rank braid until he gets the Captain braid for the final scene. Which, considering the fact that the others appear stagnated, could take place half a decade after the other bits in the movie.

Timo Saloniemi
It is defnitely possible to graduate with a rank higher than ensign, particularly in medical and science divisions. I think Bashir was meant to be straight out of the Acadamy and he was a Lt(jg).

Sulu was probably an officer. He may have transferred from physics to helm, which was why he was a bit rusty when he first sits in the chair.

It is silly that Spock is a full Commander at the age of 23-26 ish. Although this isn't impossible (TOS Kirk, Will Decker, and Will Riker were young commanders). They should have left him as a Lt as in the Cage, and promoted him to Lt-commander at the end of the movie. As it is Kirk leaps from Lt(jg) to Captain for saving the Earth and Spock gets nothing. Harsh, especially when you consider the number of new captains they need to promote from the ranks after the fleet destruction at Vulcan.

The promotion aspect of the plot was a bit too High School Musical for me but I think it's a weakness in cheesy US writing generally rather than a problem you can lay at the door of Trek.

SPOILERS

As an example, I watched 2012 last night and there's one scene in that movie where they need an engineer to effect repairs to a vessel. They seem to have no engineers on duty and no commanding officer with the common sense to keep or get a damage control team in place, so a scientist and an artist volunteer to run on foot FROM THE BRIDGE to save the day and then everybody stops doing their jobs driving the ship to see if anybody survived so that they can all cheer and hug (do Americans really enjoy that stuff - because it is cringeworthy to the max?)

There is one hilarious scene where one character suggests that the middle class American professionals should give up their tickets to some working class Chinese who built the thing (they both decline). I was reminded of the telephone sanitisers in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. I was thinking, 'If they haven't given any tickets to the Chinese mechanics, who is going to maintain and repair the ship?' Luckily they had decided to save lots of politicians who could organise a committee to argue about whose job it had been to select workers while they all die. Good riddance if that's the future of the human race!

The point is, they opted for cheese rather than realism to the detriment of the story in my view. There will be many others, mostly children, who think it is great that Kirk gets to be captain, just like they thought there was nothing wrong with Padme spending her entire role just being pregnant in the third Star Wars movie.
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Old November 26 2009, 11:56 AM   #28
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

Yeoman Randi wrote: View Post
What is the real life progression from Cadet on up to Captain?
In Canada it goes Naval Ranks <Army/Air Force Ranks>:

Naval Cadet <Offr Cadet>
Acting Sub-Lieutenant <Second Lieutenant>
Sub-Lieutenant <Lieutenant>
Lieutenant (Navy) <Captain>
Lieutenant Commander <Major>
Commander <Lieutenant Colonel>
Captain (Navy) <Colonel>

In the real world, you can expect it'll take in the range of 20-25 years to make it to Captain (N). Many, many never get that far and finish up a LCdr or Cdr, even after 30 - 35 years of service.
That being said, screw the real world, I don't like or watch Star Trek to see the real world. If I want that, all I need to do is walk out the office door (literally).

Last edited by bbailey861; November 26 2009 at 11:59 AM. Reason: Added text.
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Old November 26 2009, 01:30 PM   #29
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

That is a handy list; thanks!
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Old November 26 2009, 01:37 PM   #30
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Re: Are they cadets or are they officers?

It is defnitely possible to graduate with a rank higher than ensign, particularly in medical and science divisions. I think Bashir was meant to be straight out of the Acadamy and he was a Lt(jg).
The egalitarian UFP society might frown on its Starfleet doing that, though. Those with academic training get higher graduation ranks today because that gives them higher pay for their greater skills. But Starfleet doesn't pay its workers, not in the conventional sense. And everybody might be an academician in Starfleet. I don't hear of Starfleet engineers graduating as Lieutenants, even though they probably all hold doctorates...

(FWIW, there's a fun bit in an unused version of the ST:TMP script, a very preliminary one, where it was suggested that all Vulcans graduate as junior Lieutenants, just like MDs.)

That said, I have no real trouble believing Bashir might have graduated as Lt(jg), although he's supposedly older than 22 when we first see him. But McCoy apparently graduated at two ranks higher. Does this mean that he had special skills on top of being a full MD? In TOS, he's a specialist in space psychology - does this count in the alternate timeline?

OTOH, I have no trouble accepting Spock's high rank, either. Starfleet seems to award precious few citations, but in turn is quite willing to dish out promotions as rewards for heroics. Spock might have been quite the heroic type in his alternate youth, despite his uptight instructor appearance.

Really, the only thing that jars here is Kirk's rapid promotion at the end of the movie. And in theory, we may say he got promoted more gradually than it seems - that he was already a Lieutenant Commander when he received the captaincy, and that several years had passed after the other events of the movie. Although that's certain to be contradicted in the next movie, if we get one.

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