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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 23 2009, 02:56 PM   #1
Photon
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Wormhole Minefield Q's

When mining the WH, the mouth of that thing looked huge same way when Dukat took the MF down.

All other times, the WH looked smaller maybe accommodating 1-2 ships

So which is it?

About the mines?

Memory Alpha says about the Treaty of Algernon....."The treaty also expressly prohibited the development or use of cloaking device technology by the Federation"

So Fed use of cloaked mines was an aberration of the treaty if not by letter then in spirit.

The Romulans didn't complain perhaps b/c it may have only applied to ships or perhaps the gravity of the situation.

Lastly, where did SF get the cloaks?
SF Intel? Section 31....replicated aboard DS9
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Old November 23 2009, 03:07 PM   #2
Timo
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

It would seem to make sense that the wormhole opens to whatever size is appropriate for letting the currently incoming vessel through...

There's probably some sort of an upper limit, though, which the heroes and villains would have been aware of - so sending a fleet of ships a hundred kilometers wide wouldn't help expand the wormhole mouth past the minefield.

Lastly, where did SF get the cloaks? SF Intel? Section 31....replicated aboard DS
I'd think cloaks could be built as high school projects if not for the ban on them. Once the ban gets ignored, it's just a matter of pressing the right buttons in the replicator, and pop comes out a cloak or a thousand. The Feds must know how to build those things, even if they don't actually build them too often.

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Old November 23 2009, 08:39 PM   #3
Xerxes1979
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

You could make the argument that what ended up being deployed was essentially a heavily modifed Klingon design.

If intellectual credit for the idea goes to Rom then he has no obligation to obey the Treaty of Algeron.

The problematic part is determining how much work O'brien was responsible for.

Perhaps the Defiant which is specifically granted cloak status is permitted certain legal liberties. In any case a good chunk of those mines came from the Rotaran, just tell the Romulans it was a Klingon operation.
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Old November 23 2009, 09:40 PM   #4
AdmiralGarak
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

The person who designed the cloaks doesn't matter. The mines were being deployed by a Federation ship, which the treaty forbids. If the designer was all that mattered, then the Federation would simply buy cloaks in bulk from the Klingons and render the treaty meaningless. Also, the Rotarran did not deploy mines. The Rotarran's mission in "Call to Arms" was to escort the Defiant, which was vulnerable as it deployed the mines.

At any rate, the Romulans aren't going to complain so long as the Defiant's cloaking tech is only used against the Dominion. That's why they gave it to Sisko in the first place. I'm sure some off-screen deal was brokered.
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Old November 23 2009, 10:13 PM   #5
fishingforships
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
If intellectual credit for the idea goes to Rom then he has no obligation to obey the Treaty of Algeron.
I don't believe that Rom completely designed the mines himself, only the idea of self replicating mines. As for the cloaks on them, they could be Klingon, a variation of the Romulan cloak given to Starfleet, or yes The Federation could have ignored the Treaty of Algernon in the face of a full scale invasion force, which they would have little to no chance of defeating.
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Old November 23 2009, 11:02 PM   #6
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

How much time between the idea and execution of the idea was there? Maybe Starfleet just contacted the Romulans and asked for an exception in this case for the good of the Alpha Quadrant.
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Old November 23 2009, 11:46 PM   #7
Wes-Cutting
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

A note on the size of the Wormhole, if you wanted to be true to what is actually thought about wormholes in modern day science then the mouth of the wormhole would have to be huge inorder to accomidate (spelling is horrible here, sorry) a single ship. Most ideas of tiny wormholes that we see in Star Trek don't meet with what theories state.

Feel free to poke holes in this arguement if I completely misunderstood what my science buddy was telling me.
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Old November 24 2009, 12:03 AM   #8
DGCatAniSiri
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

The Romulans had just signed a non-aggression treaty with the Dominion at the time of the wormhole mining, remember? I don't think anyone on the Alpha Quadrant side was in a position to actually sit down and chat about the usage of cloaking devices at that moment. Then the war breaks out, and by the time that the Romulans and Federation are back on decent speaking terms, they're allies and the Romulans believe the Dominion assassinated one of their Senators, so it's all retroactively forgiven.

In other words, it's a minor plot hole because someone on the writing staff either forgot about the treaty or decided that Starfleet was looking at a 'better to beg forgiveness than ask permission' stance with a practical alternative to Dominion reinforcements overrunning the Alpha Quadrant and ignored it.
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Old November 24 2009, 02:40 AM   #9
Braxton
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

Let's not forget that the Romulans felt the Dominion was a serious threat to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. They attacked the Founders homeworld, they tried to collapse the wormhole and they joined the Federation and Klingons at DS9 when the Dominion finally did come through. They probably didn't care, after all the Federation just did something that was their aim and that was to keep the Dominion in their own quadrant. While they'd play up the fact their enemies were taking a beating, it's entirely possible it was all part of their long-term plan.
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Old November 24 2009, 04:55 AM   #10
MeanJoePhaser
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

DS9 is technically property of Bajor. They could say they were deploying the mines on Bajor's behalf.

Of course, that's iffy since Bajor signed a non-aggression treaty with the Dominion, and since the Dominion opposed the minefield's creation, it means that the Dominion could've conquered Bajor if the Bajoran were "officially" the creators of the mines.
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Old November 24 2009, 05:06 AM   #11
dHunter333
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

i was always confused that a small replicator on a mine had enough power to create a new mine with a new replicator with a powersouce capable of doing this over and over and over
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Old November 24 2009, 06:24 AM   #12
Jono
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

dHunter333 wrote: View Post
i was always confused that a small replicator on a mine had enough power to create a new mine with a new replicator with a powersouce capable of doing this over and over and over
I think it was the DS9TM that covered that by stating that when a mine was destroy the surrounding mines would contribute to the replication of a replacement.
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Old November 24 2009, 09:33 AM   #13
Timo
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

Those, and no doubt the surrounding starship debris resulting from the explosion. That is, if the explosion hit a starship.

Still, one'd think the minefield would run out of juice eventually if the Dominion just found a way to destroy a single mine every few minutes, without feeding the field with starship debris in the process. But apparently, destroying (finding) even a single mine was difficult enough that they couldn't keep it up for such an outcome.

As for the legal technicalities of the use of cloaks, I don't think they would have mattered. If the Romulans found the idea of cloaked mine use unpalatable, they'd ged mad quite regardless of legal gobledigoop. If they didn't have a problem with the idea, they would turn a blind eye even if the letter of the law were blatantly being broken.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old November 24 2009, 04:29 PM   #14
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Wormhole Minefield Q's

Yeah, the cloaked mines were keeping the Dominion fleet on their own side of the wormhole, so I can't imagine the Romulans were too upset about it. I always assumed the purpose of the treaty was to give the Romulans peace of mind, not having to worry about the Federation sneaking around their territory in cloaked ships. It gave the Rommies a tactical advantage. In this instance, it didn't hurt them at all, and actually helped them, so why rock the boat?
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