RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,156
Posts: 5,402,263
Members: 24,749
Currently online: 595
Newest member: Legends

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 3 2010, 01:51 PM   #1
GalaxyClass1701
Captain
 
GalaxyClass1701's Avatar
 
Location: USS Titan
View GalaxyClass1701's Twitter Profile
How can anyone think Sisko died?

I have had three people (one on this board) tell me that they thought Sisko died.

How is this interpritation even possible?

After he falls and talks to Sarah he comes to Kassidy and flat out says he is coming back he just doesn't know when.

How can someone think he died?
GalaxyClass1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 02:27 PM   #2
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

I think numerous interpretations are possible. That he died is one of them. It's not the one I prefer personally, but I think the ambiguity of the final scene allows for it.

Sisko has joined the Prophets, but who are the prophets? Beings that live outside of time, perhaps transfigured Bajorans? The "Pagh" of sentient beings once they have shed their corporeal form? What is communicating with Kassidy may be Sisko's "Pagh" or "soul" now that his physical form has died.

He says he will return, but this is temporally ambiguous: maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday, i.e. maybe in the past or the future, since his conception of time is now that of the Prophets: non-linear.

It's also possible that Sisko's physical form has simply been removed from time, a bit like the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels, which would mean that he may return to linear time, "maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday," presumably whenever the Emissary is again needed.

flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 02:33 PM   #3
GalaxyClass1701
Captain
 
GalaxyClass1701's Avatar
 
Location: USS Titan
View GalaxyClass1701's Twitter Profile
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

flemm wrote: View Post
I think numerous interpretations are possible. That he died is one of them. It's not the one I prefer personally, but I think the ambiguity of the final scene allows for it.

Sisko has joined the Prophets, but who are the prophets? Beings that live outside of time, perhaps transfigured Bajorans? The "Pagh" of sentient beings once they have shed their corporeal form? What is communicating with Kassidy may be Sisko's "Pagh" or "soul" now that his physical form has died.

He says he will return, but this is temporally ambiguous: maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday, i.e. maybe in the past or the future, since his conception of time is now that of the Prophets: non-linear.
But he also says it could be as little as a year. I don't know I never once thought he was dead?
GalaxyClass1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:00 PM   #4
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

GalaxyClass1701 wrote: View Post
But he also says it could be as little as a year. I don't know I never once thought he was dead?

Well, for one thing, we don't really have to take what he says literally. It's Sisko's pagh that's doing the talking here, or the part of him that is a Prophet. Often, after someone has died, you will hear things like, "He was with us today in spirit," or "I could feel his presence among us," expressions that might be more or less metaphorical depending on who's using them. Given the Prophet's ability to "watch over" and to "guide" beings in linear time, Prophet Sisko could be referring to something like this.

There's also the possibility of some sort of rebirth or return to linear time that would not necessarily preclude Sisko dying in the fire caves. Since part of him lives outside of linear time, he could probably return in the future and still "die" in WYLB.

I'm just saying: I think a few different interpretations are possible and the final scene is intended to be enigmatic, underscored by the temporal uncertainty: maybe in a year, maybe tomorrow, maybe yesterday, etc.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:04 PM   #5
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

In the original version of the script (which was filmed) Sisko was dead. Well, his body was dead but his consciousness ascended to the Celestial Temple and he was trapped there never to return. After filming it, Avery Brooks had reservations about the image of a black man being seen to abandon his pregnant wife and he feared that it made Sisko into a bad role-model, so he asked for the scene to be rewritten to make it clear that he would return one day. Ira agreed and that's the ending that made it into the episode.

Personally, I prefer the intention of original ending, it works far better with the warning given to him by the Prophets in Sacrifice of Angels and Penumbra. By "removing" the Dominion ships from the wormhole the Prophets began a series of events which caused Dukat to go mad, his madness led him to try to release the Pah-Wraiths, and that led to Sisko sacrificing himself to stop them. "The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there." Sisko will never leave the Celestial Temple and will never have the opportunity to built his house on Bajor.

Yes, Sisko did say he would return, but that might have been something he said to Kasidy to keep her spirits up. Or he might not have understood the situation fully and thought that he could return one day. Or he was just lying to himself in thinking he could return to his old life. I like that there's more ambiguity in this ending because all the people that want Sisko to be alive can still see it that way, but as far as I'm concerned Sisko is as good as dead, that was the creator's intention.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:15 PM   #6
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
"The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there." Sisko will never leave the Celestial Temple and will never have the opportunity to built his house on Bajor.
There's really no contradiction between the idea that Sisko will return and the prophecy that he is "of Bajor," but will find no rest there. Presumably if he does return, it will not be to live happily ever after, but to accomplish some further task as the Emissary.

I actually prefer the ending as filmed since it allows for some ambiguity.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:20 PM   #7
Jono
Rear Admiral
 
Jono's Avatar
 
Location: Australia
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

Sisko "sheds" his corporeal self and lives on in "heaven"...sounds like he is dead. Sisko then tells people he will be back...sounds a bit like reincarnation. So thinking Sisko is dead isn't that much of a stretch and lets face it Trek has a long and proud history of killing people only for them to come back from the dead.
Jono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:23 PM   #8
DevilEyes
Rear Admiral
 
DevilEyes's Avatar
 
Location: basking in the warmth of the Fire Caves
View DevilEyes's Twitter Profile
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

Yes, and, black or not, Sisko leaving a pregnant wife and son to achieve some sort of "higher" destiny frankly sucks.
__________________
Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

my Buffy/Angel rewatch
DevilEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:25 PM   #9
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Yes, and, black or not, Sisko leaving a pregnant wife and son to achieve some sort of "higher" destiny frankly sucks.
The way he returned in the DS9-R novels sucked even more. So awfully anticlimactic.


The fun thing is that in an earlier episode - where another Emissary emerges from the wormhole - they cite a prophecy in which the one who will be the Emissary has to be saved by the prophets. Eventually, this only happens in the very last episode.
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 03:30 PM   #10
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

flemm wrote: View Post
There's really no contradiction between the idea that Sisko will return and the prophecy that he is "of Bajor," but will find no rest there. Presumably if he does return, it will not be to live happily ever after, but to accomplish some further task as the Emissary.
But Sisko was also warned that if he married Kasidy he would "know only sorrow", which was originally supposed to represent the fact that he was going to leave his corporeal existence to become a Prophet. Sure, you can come up with alternative explanations later, but when they were writing the Final Chapter, Sisko was supposed to "die".

I actually prefer the ending as filmed since it allows for some ambiguity.
I prefer it too, everyone can have the ending they want this way. It reminds me of the ending of The Sopranos where the creator, David Chase, seems to have had an idea as to how it ended and placed hints for this in the final episodes, but the ending so ambiguous that multiple theories will work.

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Yes, and, black or not, Sisko leaving a pregnant wife and son to achieve some sort of "higher" destiny frankly sucks.
It's not like as if he has a choice, he's trapped.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 04:25 PM   #11
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
But Sisko was also warned that if he married Kasidy he would "know only sorrow", which was originally supposed to represent the fact that he was going to leave his corporeal existence to become a Prophet. Sure, you can come up with alternative explanations later, but when they were writing the Final Chapter, Sisko was supposed to "die".
I get that the original intent was to have him die, but it could only ever be "death" in quotation marks since a part of him was going to live on in the Temple as a Prophet and presumably continue to interact with Bajor as the Prophets had done and would continue to do.

A continued existence in another form is implied by the prophecy that marrying Kassidy would cause him to "only know sorrow," since the only way to know sorrow is to go on existing (though separated from his beloved). In that sense, the idea that Sisko may eventually return satisfies the Prophets' warning just as well as the original ending, if not better: it's being separated that produces the sorrow, not being dead, and an eventual return does not imply happiness from that moment on.

In some sense, Sisko and Kassidy's separation is not unlike Kira and Odo's: Odo has joined the Link, and though he may one day return (the possibility exists), that is uncertain. Sisko has joined the Prophets, and though he may one day return, the time and manner of his return is unknown. Hence there is sorrow, in both cases.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 05:54 PM   #12
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

The question is, can Sisko return? Whenever the Prophets (or Pah-Wraiths) have contacted somebody before they only seem to interact with the consciousness or soul of the person, the person's physical form remains in linear time. As such, I believe that when Sisko was rescued from the Fire Caves his body was left to burn while his soul is what moved on to live in the Celestial Temple. Are the Prophets even capable of sending Sisko back if his body is dead? We know they are able to possess living beings, such as Sarah Sisko, but they don't seem to be capable of creating physical forms for themselves.

Sisko could certainly interact with Kasidy, Jake and Baby Sisko if he wants, and he could interact with Bajor to guide them in times of trouble, but I'm not convinced that he'd be capable of coming back and living with corporeal beings again.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 06:49 PM   #13
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Sisko could certainly interact with Kasidy, Jake and Baby Sisko if he wants, and he could interact with Bajor to guide them in times of trouble, but I'm not convinced that he'd be capable of coming back and living with corporeal beings again.
I'm certainly open to the idea the Sisko may only return as a Prophet, i.e. in visions and such.

Is it possible he could return in physical form?

I think the answer is probably "yes," if we conclude that the Prophets pulled his corporeal form out of linear time as they apparently did to the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels.

How could they have accomplished this outside of the wormhole?

Answering this in any detail would require an extended fanwanking session, due to the fact that we are given little information regarding the Pagh Wraith and their imprisonment within the fire caves. We could probably start with the notion that the fire caves, like the Orbs (Tears of the Prophets), are a passageway to whatever dimension the Prophets inhabit outside of linear time.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 07:19 PM   #14
TheGodBen
Rear Admiral
 
TheGodBen's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

flemm wrote: View Post
Is it possible he could return in physical form?

I think the answer is probably "yes," if we conclude that the Prophets pulled his corporeal form out of linear time as they apparently did to the Jem'Hadar in Sacrifice of Angels.
I think the answer is "yes" so long as the plot requires it.

Since there is no more plot (not for me at any rate, I don't read the novels) I'm going to continue to believe that Sisko is stuck now, never to return to his old life except in visions. But that's because I'm a cold and cynical person.
__________________
...so many different suns...
TheGodBen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 3 2010, 07:24 PM   #15
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: How can anyone think Sisko died?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Since there is no more plot (not for me at any rate, I don't read the novels) I'm going to continue to believe that Sisko is stuck now, never to return to his old life except in visions. But that's because I'm a cold and cynical person.
Why "stuck" and not freed from the bonds of his corporeal/linear existence?
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:24 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.