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Old October 29 2009, 06:16 PM   #31
ClayinCA
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

O'Dib wrote: View Post
ClayinCA wrote: View Post
Neither Mary Jane nor Peter had sex with Mephisto - not sure where you got that from.
I seem to remember seeing her whisper something in Mephisto's ear, y'know, like she was offering to sweeten the deal. I fugured that's why Pete got more than just auntie back.
Um...okay. Well, it's nice to know that there's someone out there who understands these characters even less than Joe Quesada.
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Old October 29 2009, 06:48 PM   #32
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

ClayinCA wrote: View Post
O'Dib wrote: View Post
ClayinCA wrote: View Post
Neither Mary Jane nor Peter had sex with Mephisto - not sure where you got that from.
I seem to remember seeing her whisper something in Mephisto's ear, y'know, like she was offering to sweeten the deal. I fugured that's why Pete got more than just auntie back.
Um...okay. Well, it's nice to know that there's someone out there who understands these characters even less than Joe Quesada.
Yeah, apparently about 62-64K worth of people per week that apparently aren't as attached to the Power&Responsibility angle of the character and/or simply understand Spidey/Peter as equally bad as JoeQ.

ASM hangs in the lower top 20 on good weeks, Buffy out sells ASM for crying out loud per issue.
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Old October 29 2009, 06:55 PM   #33
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

So how else would you interpret that particular panel? Admittedly, I don't really read grown up spidey, more into the ultimate line.
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Old October 29 2009, 07:41 PM   #34
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
No matter how good the stories might have become, they're still stories told about a dude who made a deal with the devil.
I don't give a damn about this new Peter Parker anymore, so I don't read BND-Spider-man.
I switched over to USM instead. At least that Peter is still likable.
Too bad his world got Loeb-ed though.
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Old October 29 2009, 08:43 PM   #35
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

O'Dib wrote: View Post
So how else would you interpret that particular panel?
I've read multiple interpretations of that panel: she asked Mephisto to let her remember the marriage (the most popular interpretation), or she asked him to resurrect Harry Osborne, or that it was an unspecified whisper that could be retconned into a justification for hitting the reset button later on. But I have never before seen anyone suggest that MJ was offering to have sex with Mephisto. That's just bizarre.
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Old October 29 2009, 09:01 PM   #36
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

lol. Shit, I'm gonna have to reread this now.. I got my impression, I think, from the sick smirk Mephisto had on his face after that whisper. Also, it doesn't sound likely he would do any of those extra things you suggest without jacking up the price of the transaction.
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Old October 29 2009, 09:57 PM   #37
coolghoul
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

DarthPipes wrote: View Post
This best sums up superhero husbands like Spider-Man...

http://www.cracked.com/article_16512...-husbands.html

That thing is hilarious!!

And it doesn't even mention Scott Summers' marriage to Madelyne Pryor!


Christopher wrote: View Post
O'Dib wrote: View Post
So how else would you interpret that particular panel?
I've read multiple interpretations of that panel: she asked Mephisto to let her remember the marriage (the most popular interpretation), or she asked him to resurrect Harry Osborne, or that it was an unspecified whisper that could be retconned into a justification for hitting the reset button later on. But I have never before seen anyone suggest that MJ was offering to have sex with Mephisto. That's just bizarre.
Actually I thought o.p. was deliberately making a funny... y'know it goes with the phrase "whisper sweet nothings into the ear". So, in effect, I thought he was lampooning the whole thing - It suggested that our favorite redhead in the MU has a thing for Mephisto (who is red all over!)

Well - at least I thought it was funny when I read his explanation...

I think people hate the general direction of the recent ASM spidey so much that they don't see things humorously.
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Last edited by coolghoul; October 29 2009 at 10:21 PM. Reason: Responding to another post, instead of creating a new post.
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Old October 29 2009, 10:15 PM   #38
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Ayelbourne wrote: View Post
No matter how good the stories might have become, they're still stories told about a dude who made a deal with the devil.
I don't give a damn about this new Peter Parker anymore, so I don't read BND-Spider-man.
I switched over to USM instead. At least that Peter is still likable.
Again, where was this fan outrage before OMD? Where Quesada:

1)Spent a whole year trying to get MJ and Peter broken up, hoping the fans would accept it. But unlike mindless lemming X-Men fans, Spider-Man fans told him to fuck off. Not JMS's greatest moment btw.

2)Angered at the fan rejection, sought revenge by shitting all over Pete's other great love Gwen Stacy by having her pity fuck Norman Osbourne. The guy should have been done as EIC after that. No if's, and's, or but's about it. I can't believe fans weren't as upset about that as they were OMD. One of the reason I just can't take Marvel fans seriously anymore.

3) Had his boy toy Mark Millar reveal Pete's secret identity to the world. And then had the audacity to call it brilliant.

4)Actually published that piece of shit, Reign. A lame, Dark Knight Returns ripoff that didn't even try to hide it. In which Pete's Spider Semen poisons Mary Jane. Yes that's right. Peter Parker literally fucks Mary Jane to death. Just proving that that motherfucker has no shame and really, really hates Spider-Man. I wonder if it was the money shot that killed her. I think her face probably melted off like that Nazi dude at the end of Raider of The Lost Ark. But again, I'm probably just giving Quesada ideas.


They did all this to Pete, and much more during Quesada's reign of terror. But selling his soul to the Devil is what offends people? Really? That's what finally made people turn on Quesada? Really? Becuase that's nothing compared to what he did to him prior to that.
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Old October 29 2009, 10:37 PM   #39
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

^

Case in point re people being upset about ASM spidey storylines.

See - I don't get some of the hate re Gwen Stacy having babies after a one-night stand with Norman Osborn. Is it a retcon? Yes, it is. And a badly-fitting retcon? Sure.

But I don't agree with some of the comments (not Thrall's but I've seen it elsewhere) about how Gwen because of this is now being called names like a "whore". Just cause she didn't understand or get the creepy vibes from Norman Osborn and ends up having a one-night stand with him doesn't automatically "soil" her or anything. It was a poor decision. Some people make it.

Of course, by having this "side" of the story be revealed thirty-plus years after the original storyline (I exaggerate, perhaps but still...) is a pretty poor retcon. So I do think the writer is overreaching when they try to suggest that this actually happened and nobody was aware of it.
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Old October 29 2009, 10:55 PM   #40
Thrall
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

See - I don't get some of the hate re Gwen Stacy having babies after a one-night stand with Norman Osborn. Is it a retcon? Yes, it is. And a badly-fitting retcon? Sure.
People were offended because:

-It raped the mythology
-It was ridiculously out of character
-It was done solely so Quesada could get revenge on the fans
-It makes all the times Peter spent mopping about her death over the past 35 years kind of fucking pointless, now doesn't it?
-It was the complete opposite of what Lee, Kirby, and Ditko were trying to do with their stories.

But I don't agree with some of the comments (not Thrall's but I've seen it elsewhere) about how Gwen because of this is now being called names like a "whore". Just cause she didn't understand or get the creepy vibes from Norman Osborn and ends up having a one-night stand with him doesn't automatically "soil" her or anything. It was a poor decision. Some people make it.
She cheated on her one true love with his best friends dad! How is that not the definition of "Whore"!?

Of course, by having this "side" of the story be revealed thirty-plus years after the original storyline (I exaggerate, perhaps but still...) is a pretty poor retcon. So I do think the writer is overreaching when they try to suggest that this actually happened and nobody was aware of it.
Well JMS was really pissed off by having to write it. He was originally planning on having the kids be Pete's. Which is still a stupid idea. But not nearly as bad as when Quesada got a hold of it, and decided to change it to Norman. Because he thought it would make for better drama and he didn't want people thinking Pete is older then he actually is.
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Old October 29 2009, 11:46 PM   #41
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

O'Dib wrote: View Post
Also, it doesn't sound likely he would do any of those extra things you suggest without jacking up the price of the transaction.
Well, yes, that much is right there on the page. MJ asked Mephisto to restore Peter's life to the way it was and "give him a chance for happiness," and in exchange for that, she would "sweeten the deal" by offering him something. That's not in dispute. The question is simply what it was that she offered him, and I have never before heard anyone suggest that it would be anything as crass and simple as her having sex with the Devil. I mean, this is the Devil! If he wants carnal pleasures, he'd have no trouble getting hold of women who'd do far kinkier things than MJ has ever contemplated. I think he'd consider that far too trivial a reward to be worth his while. I mean, he's the Prince of Darkness, not a frat boy. The kind of price he'd demand would be something that caused someone pain on a spiritual level. That's what gets him off -- not bedding a supermodel.



Thrall wrote: View Post
-It raped the mythology
That's an ugly thing to say. Rape is a hideous, life-changing violation inflicted on a real human being, and it's immature, crass, and insensitive to use it as a metaphor for someone telling a story you didn't enjoy. Grow up and get a sense of proportion.


-It was ridiculously out of character
What character? Part of why I liked "Sins Past" is that it actually gave Gwen Stacy a personality. Let's face it, until that story, Gwen was pretty much defined solely by one thing: her death. Before that, she was just a fairly ordinary love-interest character. And even in the story of her own death, she was nothing but a passive victim, a pawn sacrificed in the battle between two men. "Sins Past" redefined the story of her death so that the reasons for her death were about her, not just about Peter. It made her the central character in the defining story of her life rather than just a pretty prop to throw off a bridge so a male hero would be all angsty. And it makes her a real, nuanced human being with understandable, forgiveable human failings, rather than a shallow, idealized fanboy fantasy.


-It makes all the times Peter spent mopping about her death over the past 35 years kind of fucking pointless, now doesn't it?
What a hideous thing to say! Just because she was human and imperfect, her death wasn't worth grieving? What a truly horrifying sentiment.


She cheated on her one true love with his best friends dad! How is that not the definition of "Whore"!?
Because the definition of "whore" is "a woman who offers sexual services in exchange for money." That's not Gwen, obviously. She was a young woman who made a mistake because an older, powerful man took advantage of her, and who deeply regretted it afterward. People make mistakes. Interesting fictional characters make mistakes. Look at Peter Parker. His whole life is defined by one huge mistake -- letting a burglar escape justice when he could've easily captured him. He made that one mistake, he paid a high price for it, and he spent the rest of his life trying to make amends for it. Gwen Stacy did essentially the same thing. So unless you also think Peter Parker is an unforgivably awful human being, then you're employing a grossly sexist double standard.
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Old October 30 2009, 12:14 AM   #42
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Gwen was not a whore...just misled and didn't have all of the facts at her disposal when she made the mistake she did. That whole story arc...ugh...and I had pretty much the same reaction Peter did when he was being told the story. Part of the reason Gwen made this mistake was the type of person she was...she cared about other people...and saw that Norman wasn't in the best of condition and felt sorry for him. Norman the psychopath that he is took advantage of the situation knowing that this would really hurt Peter when he found out about it. Since this story is a retcon I'm not surprised that the Goblin didn't taunt Peter about this after he tossed Gwen off the bridge because I'm pretty sure that would happen if The Death of Gwen Stacy was retold now.
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Old October 30 2009, 03:21 AM   #43
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

[QUOTE=Thrall;3532316]
Well JMS was really pissed off by having to write it. He was originally planning on having the kids be Pete's. Which is still a stupid idea. But not nearly as bad as when Quesada got a hold of it, and decided to change it to Norman. Because he thought it would make for better drama and he didn't want people thinking Pete is older then he actually is.
The Sins Past story is what really marked the downturn for recent Spider-Man stories. And it just shows how moronic Quesada's decisions are. He doesn't want the Goblin twins to be Peter's because it makes him older? Hello! Teenagers these days are making kids all the time! Does that make them old? And as dumb as this story was, it would've had more impact if the twins were Peter's and were corrupted by Osborne. Way to go Quesada, when will Disney fire you?
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Old October 30 2009, 03:26 AM   #44
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
Gwen was not a whore...just misled and didn't have all of the facts at her disposal when she made the mistake she did. That whole story arc...ugh...and I had pretty much the same reaction Peter did when he was being told the story. Part of the reason Gwen made this mistake was the type of person she was...she cared about other people...and saw that Norman wasn't in the best of condition and felt sorry for him. Norman the psychopath that he is took advantage of the situation knowing that this would really hurt Peter when he found out about it. Since this story is a retcon I'm not surprised that the Goblin didn't taunt Peter about this after he tossed Gwen off the bridge because I'm pretty sure that would happen if The Death of Gwen Stacy was retold now.
That brings up one of my real problem with the retcon, like for DS9's 'Wrongs Darker Than... with Dukat and Kira's Mom. In all the years of Spidey/GG fights, including after Clone Saga, Norman never made so much as a quip in this direction.

Christopher is right in that it makes her a more complex character, but so does AoA, and without making her a bloody fool for a man that, Goblin aside, she had to have seen as a cold individual.
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Old October 30 2009, 03:44 AM   #45
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Re: Spider-Man Post Brand New Day

I've blocked the Gwen/Norman thing out of my memory, like Enterprise.

Didn't happen.

Nope.
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