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Old November 8 2009, 03:20 AM   #181
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

By the by, getting back to that Canada/Mars Colonies thing for a second. Two mentions of the comparison constitutes grounds for getting on a reader's nerves?

One thing I got out of the references, though: Mars must've had a heavy Canadian contingent amongst its initial settlement waves. Probably Ontarian-born for the most part. Otherwise, the subject would never have come up at all.
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Old November 8 2009, 03:33 AM   #182
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

There was a war for Martian independence mentioned, I believe. I wonder what was supposed to be so evil about the Earth government that compelled Mars to take up arms against it?
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Old November 8 2009, 03:50 AM   #183
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Maybe not so much evil as disorganized, preoccupied and who knows what else?
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Old November 8 2009, 03:56 AM   #184
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Ronald Held wrote: View Post
I will be interested in seeing how T'Pau changes from this novel to the TOS era.
Especially her accent.
One possible rationalization: In ENT, she's speaking Vulcan, which the translators render as unaccented English, but in "Amok Time," she's speaking English with a heavy "Vulcan" accent.


Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There was a war for Martian independence mentioned, I believe. I wonder what was supposed to be so evil about the Earth government that compelled Mars to take up arms against it?
Doesn't have to be evil. History is rarely about anything as simplistic as white hats versus black hats. Eventually colonies want to gain their independence, but the folks back home might have conflicting needs, such as relying on the colony as a source of revenue or a population relief valve.
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Old November 8 2009, 03:57 AM   #185
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
History is rarely about anything as simplistic as white hats versus black hats.
Remember who you're talking to here.

Or perhaps it was Mars who was in the wrong? Maybe the Martians were just being pricks.

As for T'Pau...in TOS, I wonder why she would bother speaking English at all. By that point she clearly did not have a particularly high opinion of humans, so why would she stoop to the level of speaking their language?
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Old November 8 2009, 04:06 AM   #186
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There was a war for Martian independence mentioned, I believe. I wonder what was supposed to be so evil about the Earth government that compelled Mars to take up arms against it?
Doesn't have to be evil. History is rarely about anything as simplistic as white hats versus black hats. Eventually colonies want to gain their independence, but the folks back home might have conflicting needs, such as relying on the colony as a source of revenue or a population relief valve.
And one of the two or three nearest and most convenient such relief valves at that point, out of all of those already in play, right? Luna, Mars, the Alpha Cent worlds...and likely ten or twenty others officially sanctioned by United Earth during that first post-First Contact half-century.

(We won't even get into the unsanctioned expeditions, which we know were also gearing up in no small numbers during those years.)
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Old November 8 2009, 05:06 AM   #187
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

DEWLine wrote: View Post
By the by, getting back to that Canada/Mars Colonies thing for a second. Two mentions of the comparison constitutes grounds for getting on a reader's nerves?
"Getting on my nerves" is a bit strong. It was a minor irritant -- I'm enjoying the book a lot, but minor things stick out in a book that's otherwise excellent.

I just tend to think that in the real world, Canada doesn't get the kind of respect it deserves (say, for the Canadian Forces contingent in Afghanistan, or for Operation Yellow Ribbon), and so when I see a TRW describe Mars as being less powerful and ignored compared to Earth in the same way Canada is to America, it just irritates me slightly, especially since it's my understanding that Canada is likely to become a more powerful country as the next century unfolds in real life.

One thing I got out of the references, though: Mars must've had a heavy Canadian contingent amongst its initial settlement waves. Probably Ontarian-born for the most part. Otherwise, the subject would never have come up at all.
It's certainly possible that the first Martian colonies had a Canadian contingent, but the comparison to Canada was made in terms of describing the relationship between Mars and Earth as being analogous to that between Canada and the United States.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There was a war for Martian independence mentioned, I believe. I wonder what was supposed to be so evil about the Earth government that compelled Mars to take up arms against it?
The Martian war for independence was depicted as happening about 50 years before Beaneath the Raptor's Wings, so around 2105 or 2106 or thereabouts. Articles of the Federation established that United Earth wasn't established until 2130. So the Martian colonies were probably colonies of a pre-Unification state or collection of states on Earth, against whom they fought for independence, not United Earth itself. (Maybe this conflict was one of the reasons the Vulcan government decided to obstruct Earth's expansion into interstellar space before the launch of the NX-01.)

Though, bear in mind that it's entirely possible for a rebellion/revolution to occur and Martian colonists to be fighting for independence without either side being truly "evil."

EDIT:

Removed content in case I was giving a story idea. PM me for a scenario on how Earth and Mars might have come to blows without either side truly being in the wrong.
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Old November 8 2009, 05:13 AM   #188
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Sci wrote: View Post
United Earth wasn't established until 2130. So the Martian colonies were probably colonies of a pre-Unification state or collection of states on Earth, against whom they fought for independence, not United Earth itself.
Good point. Forgot about that one.

Though, bear in mind that it's entirely possible for a rebellion/revolution to occur and Martian colonists to be fighting for independence without either side being truly "evil."
Oh, you know where I stand on *that* little nugget.
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Old November 8 2009, 05:16 AM   #189
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
United Earth wasn't established until 2130. So the Martian colonies were probably colonies of a pre-Unification state or collection of states on Earth, against whom they fought for independence, not United Earth itself.
Good point. Forgot about that one.

Though, bear in mind that it's entirely possible for a rebellion/revolution to occur and Martian colonists to be fighting for independence without either side being truly "evil."
Oh, you know where I stand on *that* little nugget.
What if both sides legitimately need something from the other but neither side understands that because they're so busy only thinking from their own POVs?
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Old November 8 2009, 12:08 PM   #190
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

I finished the book on tuesday and loved the ending. That's a very interesting cliffhanger so far and can't wait to see what will happen in 2011 if there is a new book for the 10th anniversary of the series itself.
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Old November 8 2009, 12:11 PM   #191
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

I was wondering. Couldn't Trip easily come back and serve on the Enterprise? Doesn't his "death" as shown in TATV take place ten years after his "actual death" as shown in the novels?
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Old November 8 2009, 04:07 PM   #192
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

I always assumed that was part of the rationalization for doing it the way they did, but they seem to be taking their sweet time with getting Trip back to Enterprise. At this point, it's starting to look like we would've gotten more Trip as-we-knew-him, on balance, if they just proceeded normally and let him die once they got to six years after Terra Prime.
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Old November 8 2009, 07:37 PM   #193
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

David cgc wrote: View Post
I always assumed that was part of the rationalization for doing it the way they did, but they seem to be taking their sweet time with getting Trip back to Enterprise. At this point, it's starting to look like we would've gotten more Trip as-we-knew-him, on balance, if they just proceeded normally and let him die once they got to six years after Terra Prime.
If they had meant to kill him in 2161, they would have never made a TATV fix in the first place...

BTW, "Last Full Measure" confirms that he's alive and well on NCC-1701's launch day anyway.
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Old November 8 2009, 08:24 PM   #194
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

What I meant was, I figured they'd planted a seed so they could fake his death in TGTMD, have him do his James Bond thing, then get back to the Enterprise for some historically notable adventures, and then need, for some reason, to fake his death again in '61, at which point they'd just reuse the old cover story rather than stage a second, different death.

But Trip's been James Bond-ing it so much, now, it seems almost pointless to have unkilled him. I mean, he's not on the ship, he's not doing engineering... he may as well be a different character altogether. It's looking like TGTMD was more about saving the character's dignity than his life.
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Old November 8 2009, 08:28 PM   #195
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

David cgc wrote: View Post
...It's looking like TGTMD was more about saving the character's dignity than his life.
As far as I'm concerned, TGTMD accomplished this. I would go so far as to say that TGTMD saved the dignity of the entire series, after the fiasco that was TATV. We should look on Trip's life in TGTMD and beyond as his second life. It seems as though he'll never make it back to full duty as Enterprise's engineer, and that's okay. That part of his life is over. He's a supersecretsection31spy now .
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